which they fpeak. If that hon. Gentleman had applied to him he would have given him all the grounds on which he opposed thefe affertions against the prifon in question, and alfo why he fupported this bill. He would likewife tell the hon. Gentleman, that there was no cruelty more harth than that of a member of parliament ftating in his fpeech as an authentic account, fomething that he had feen in a newspaper to the prejudice of any public officer, or any other individual. Such was the cafe here in regard to the conduct of the Duke of Portland and of Mr. Wickham; the hon. Gentleman had not even the report of the gaoler of the prison upon the fubje&t. As to Colonel Defpard, he was a man who had been long in the fervice of his country most certainly, and who, from enquiry made this day, appeared to have conducted himfelf well in his confinement. The report of the cafe of this Gentleman, as stated this night, was taken from a letter publifhed in the newfpapers. He hoped he was not out of order when he faid it was fitting that all perfons, from one end of the kingdom to the other, fhould know that they are not juftified in retailing any thing that is to the prejudice of others, mc-e efpecially when it is immediately injurious to the public character of those who are entrufted with important public offices, merely because they fee it in fome new paper; and he muft alfo be permitted to obferve, that the Editor of the Courier, when he was not publicly known, inferted in that paper that most deteftable libel upon the cafe of the Liverpool prifoners, for which, he made only this apology, that his humanity would not permit him to omit inferting fuch a cafe; which mode of reafoning would amount to this-that if any body fent a letter from Paris accufing the Attorney General, or any other public officer of fomething directly oppofite to his duty, it ought to be inferted if there was in it any allegation that fomebody had been treated with inhumanity, and although he did not fay that a thing is to be difbelieved, because it is inhuman, yet he would fay it was deteftable inhumanity to believe it for no other reafon than because it was inhuman, and the more efpecially if there was no better authority for it than a newspaper and he did not know where there could be worse. In this cafe there were two confiderations brought forward, or rather involved, by the fpeech of the hon. Gentleman. Firit, what had been the conduct of the Duke of Portland and of Mr. Wickham? Secondly, what had been the regula tion of the gaol itself? And here he mult beg permission to

fay,

fay, that he hoped he was not more inhuman than others; and he hoped the national characteristic of humanity was not altered; but ftill, notions of humanity alone fhould not be acted upon against the very principles which had for ages been acted upon, and had been deemed the cement that had held fo well together. It had, upon thefe principles, been always held that perfons committed for high treafon, or fufpicion of high treafon, fhould be kept fate and clofe, and therefore, however apparently harfh it might be, to put a perfon only accused in a tituation in which he could not converfe with others, yet it was a condition infeparable from the nature of the thing; and he believed there never had occured a fingle inftance, or very rarely it there had, in which any one individual had met with more rigour than abfolute neceffity demanded. There had been fomething faid about the wives and friends of fomne prifoners being refufed accefs to them. By the way there were fome wives who had met with much indulgence, in not being taken up and confined as well as their hufbands. He then came to confider the letter which had been published in the name of Mrs. Defpard. Having read the letter, he proceeded to fhew what had been done in the cafe of this Gentleman. Some complaints having been made to the Duke of Portland relative to the fituation of Colonel Def pard, Mr. Wickham, in the month of May 1798, wrote a letter to the keeper of the prifon, ftating that he was directed by the Duke of Portland to defire that the wife of Colonel Defpard fhould have accefs to him, and might converfe with him in the prefence of any proper perfon to be entruited for that purpose. The Attorney Genera! obferved, after having read this letter, that it was in fcafon for him to fay, that he had the depofition of a perfon on oath, flating that Colonel Defpard on hearing what had been faid in the House of Commons of the hardthips of his fituation, was furprifed at it, and added, that if neceflary, he would contradi& it himself. The account the Attorney General faid he had heard of the matter was this-Mrs. Defpard, in the month of June, wrote a letter to the Duke of Portland, in confequence of which the Duke fent for the gaoler of the prifon, and gave him directions, importing that there fhould be thewn to the prifoner every indulgence which the nature of the warrant under which he was committed, and fafe cuftody, would admit. After this Mrs. Defpard wrote another letter upon the fame fubject to the noble Duke, to which no answer was returned, because proper directions upon the subject of

it

1

it had been already given. Mrs. Defpard wrote another letter to Mr. Wickham; he told her she had better write again to the Duke of Portland if he had any further complaint. She did fo. The noble Duke defired her to call at his house, which the did. He heard her complaint himself, and afterwards ordered the Colonel to have every thing confiftent with the nature of the warrant, and fafe cuftody. Ordered him to be allowed the ufe of books, and alfo directed the gaoler to attend to the circumftance of his being a man of rank, and to allow him fuch accommodation as common feeling dictated on that account. After this, Mr. Wickham, by order of the Duke of Portland, defired Mr. Ford to go to the gaol, and order every indulgence that was confiftent with fafety, to be given to all the prifoners. Nor was any time whatever in the whole recefs loft to this fubject, except one week, in which Mr. Wickham went to Tunbridge. Some time after this the Duke of Portland ordered Colonel Defpard to be removed to the place where he now is. Here he read the defcription of the cells (for fo he faid they were called) in which the prifoners were confined, by which he maintained it was clear there was no pretence for saying they were damp or unwhole fome. He then read the depofition taken in the prifon, by which it appeared, as he had stated already, that Colonel Defpard was furprifed at what had been faid on his behalf in the Houfe of Commons; and that it neceffary, he was ready to contradi& it himself. He read alfo tome parts of a converiation between the perfon making this depofition and another perfon, by which he collead that the Letter published in the papers was not of the writing of Mrs. Deipard.-- Perhaps the did not fee the whole drift of it. It was a well written letter, and for a certain purpofe well adapted; and the female fex would pardon him, if he fail it was a little, perhaps, beyond their tile in general There were artful men in that prifon, and fome of them had fhewn they ill deferved the lenity that was fhewn to them; fome of them had a great number of O'Connor's pamphlets ready for circulation. Some of them, fince they were permitted to be together, debated upon the worth of all poffible fubje&s. He would not go into the question whether thefe things, or the manner in which they were treated, were any arguments for or against the bill; he mentioned them only to thew the hon. Gentleman the great impropriety of a hafly adoption of opinion upon things of this kind, and alfo to do away the impreffion which, unanswered, the

fpeech

fpeech of the hon. Gentlemau would have produced. What he had to add was this-That he hoped and trufted, in future, before any information is given to the Houfe with refpect to the treatment of prifoners, every member of it will feel it a duty incumbent on him not to rely on the reports of newspapers, but to fift the matter to the bottom. To give a rumour the authority of a fpeech in that Houle, without being affured of the truth of that rumour, was, what he called inhumanity to the public. He hoped no accufation would be made in that House upon any fubject, before the perfon bringing it at least had fifted the matter to the bottom. No perfon wifhed lefs for harfa treatment to prifoners than himfelf. They fhould never meet with more rigour than the neceflity of the thing required, and that they ought to fubmit to without a marmur, for it was infeparable from the nature of things, and the rigour which neceflity creates, neceffity will justify. He muft repeat his obfervation, that the report of a newspaper was no authority for that Houfe to proceed upon: he therefore hoped the Houfe would hear no more of accounts from newspapers; but, if any member of the Houfe had any complaint to exhibit, he would do it from the information of his own mind, after actual enquiry into the fubject.

Mr. Courtenay faid a few words in explanation, in which he declared, that while he was with Colonel Defpard, Mrs. Defpard came to the prifon, and the Colonel told him he muft go down and speak to her, for that the was not permitted to come up to him. He would examine every matter again, if he was permitted to vilt the place, and if he found he had been in an error in any thing, he thould be perfectly ready to acknowledge it.

Mr. Wilberforce began by juftifying certain parts of his fpeech in a former debate upon the fame fubject, to which the hon. Gentleman who fpoke laft alluded. When he then mentioned that he had vifited the prifons, about which fuch glaring mifreprefentations were fent abroad, he did not mean to fay that he had visited them fince the prifoners, whose fufferings are now fo much exaggerated, were confined in them nor was he induced to vifit them from any particular grounds or motives of idle curiofity, but that he might obtain general information refpecting the plan on which they were built, and the principle, upon which their regulations were conducted, hoping that if he had room to approve of them, he might be enabled to extend the benefit of them to other parts

of

of the country. The hon. Gentleman has faid that he had feen with his own eyes, and heard with his own ears, the ill ftate of the prifons and the cruel hardships fuffered by the prifoners; but thofe who were well read in human nature must often have observed that those who labour under the influence of any strong prejudice frequently deceive themselves, and imagine that they hear and fee what perfons free from fuch prejudice would never think of. Indeed he must think the hon. Gentleman incapable of conviction, fince he perfevered in his former affertions without adducing any one fingle argument or fact in corroboration of what he has ad vanced. The hon. gentleman alfo denies that he has thrown out any reflection upon Lord Kenyon. That learned Lord was well known to be extremely jealous of his character, and unless he had good grounds for ufing the language he before referred to, that learned Lord would not have thanked the keeper of thofe prifons in terms of fuch praise for the propriety of his conduct-a conduct which, he faid, called for a general tribute of gratitude: to fuppofe, therefore, that the learned Lord would have beftowed fuch marked approbation where, it was contended, no fuch approbation was deferved, was doubtlefs throwing fomething like a reflection upon the learned Lord's judgment and fincerity. He was likewife told by the hon. Gentleman that on this fubject he had difplayed much religious facetioufnefs mixed with Chrif tian rancour; these were epithets which were rarely given to the fubftantives here made ufe of, at least from his vocabulary he was led to think fo, for Chriftian rancour was furely ill applied, and as to religious facetioufnefs he was ready to agree that a religious man might at times be facetious, but it was equally true that a man might be very irreligious and very dull. However, fuch a man might take a hint from the advice of Pope, and endeavour to enliven his dullness by the admixture of a few religious ingredients. But a word on the queftion now before the houfe. It is faid that we ought not take away that guard to which we owe the fecurity of our rights, of our liberties, and our happinefs; furely not, upon flight and capricious grounds. When, however, it is obvious that we have enemies both without and within, enemies of formidable ftrength, and of formidable malice: when we fee members of that Houfe, he would not fay, who aided, but, who appear at least to become friendly to perfons of fuch a ftamp and character, then moft undoubtedly it became the wifdom and the vigilance of VOL. I. 1798.

U u

that