expected that their Budget Estimates was taken up by the hon. Baronet on would be realized; but it is stated, in a the opposite Bench Sir Robert Fowler, despatch from the Viceroy, that if the who dealt with the proportion of Indian fall continued the deficit would have to Expenditure which ought to be borne be made good by the Indian Govern- by this country. I think those remarks ment. As to the location of the Govern- would be better addressed to the n.ent at Simla, I believe that what has Finance Minister of this country, beappeared in the newspapers on this cause I am sure that the Government of silject is an entire mistake. There is India would never object to expense no official communication on the subject; being taken off their shoulders and put but I understand that the suggestion upon the people of this country. The is that some Departments of the Govern- hon. Member for Flintshire Mr. S. ment Offices which were taken up there Smith, in an exhaustive speech, deshall be allowed to remain during the scribed to us the condition of India as it year. The question, however, has not presented itself to him after one visit. come before the Secretary of State; and, In the first place, he dealt largely with therefore, I am unable to say anything what he called the very serious increase farther upon it. The noble Lord asks of expenditure that was going on. But about the ruby mines and petroleum I am bound to say, both with regard to springs in Upper Burmah. I regret that the article he wrote and his speech, that I have no information at present on the hon. Member seems to me to have the subject of the latter, and I am not himself satisfactorily explained the avare if it has been particularly men- larger proportion of the increased extoned in the despatches we have re- penditure on which he dwells. I must ceived; but, with regard to the ruby remind the hon. Member that in every mines, it is an error to say that any growing and improving country there reference has been made to a French must be growth of expenditure. But, Syndicate. I believe that some arrange- although expenditure on those condiment is under consideration to place the tions is bound to increase, it does not, of matter in the hands of Mr. Streeter; course, follow that the Government has but he does not intend to hand the a right to be extravagant, or that in management over to a French Syndi- this instance the Government of India cate, whatever arrangement may be ought not to exercise the greatest disarrived at With regard to the criti- cretion. But I wish to remind my hon. cisms on the terms granted to the Indian Friend that a sum larger than £1,500,000 Midland Railway Company, the hon. is every year invested from the ReMember for North Paddington Mr. venues of India in public works, and in Lionel Cohen, who is undoubtedly a that way you will find that £5,000,000 financial authority, has explained that more have been invested than the sum it would have been impossible for the he mentioned as the net deficit in the Government to obtain better terms than Accounts of recent years. With re they did. Let me here refer to the Bill gard to the value of silver, the right of which the hon. Gentleman spoke, and, hon. Member for North-East Manat the same time, give him credit for chester Sir James Fergusson) called the crigination of the measure which the attention of the hon. Member for was drafted to carry out his views. I Flintshire to the information he had, regret that the Bill was not proceeded which, as far as my knowledge goes, I with, because I think there was time to am able to confirm, that the value of Fare passed it But, as it is, I believe the rupee in India is the same as it was it will be taken up again, and that the before the fall in exchange took place; result will be that in future we shall be and, therefore, the income of some of able to raise money on better terms to the Natives, which the hon. Member supply the requirements of Guaranted 1 stated to be as low as 40 rupees, is reRalways. The hon. Member also pointed presented by more than 30 as he supeat that the Government of India would posed. But I cannot go further into be in a position by the means indicated that subject now. I will only say in to borrow in a short time, if they chose conclusion that, whilst many interesting to do so, £9,000,000, without, in reality, questions have been raised upon which alling to the burdens of the country.. I should like to have said something, I

and ask leave to sit again."-(Mr. | sufficient time for the purpose. The Brodrick.)

only opponent of the Bill is the hon. Member who has just spoken, and he opposes it because he knows that if it passes into law the Corporation of Derry will be Nationalists, and because he

passes the Municipality of Derry will never again have a Tory Member. This is the only matter that underlies the hon. Gentleman's opposition. Another reason why we should go on now is that we can hold a short Sitting to-morrow, at which the Report and third reading of the Bill can be taken; and then, if the Lords pass the Bill, there is nothing easier than for the Government, in the interval before the Session closes, to pass the Bill into law. Under the circumstances, we shall certainly press the Committee on one point, and that is to allow the Bill to go through to-night.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY Mr. HENRY H FOWLER) (Wolverhampton, E.: I simply stated the farts, and the position in which the Bill stool; it is, of course, for the Com-knows that if this Nationalist measure mittee to come to a decision upon those facts. I may state that my sympathy is entirely with this Bill, and my hope is to see it pass into law, although, as I have said, there are great difficulties in the way of its doing so this Session. As I have pointed out, the Committee will frm their own conclusion on the subjet I do not see that there are many Amendments on the Paper; and, supping that the Bill passes through Committee, the Report stage can only be reached on Thursday. I need not go through the other stages that have to be taken, but will merely say that I should like the division to be a proof that this House is in favour of the Bill, and that the Government, who have been in favour of the Bill all along, are not to blame if it does not become law this Session.

SIR ROBERT FOWLER London: I have to refer to one extraordinary point in the remarks of the hon. Member for Sligo Mr. Sexton, who says that if there should be a Nationalist Mayor in Derry it will be impossible for my hon. Friend to be returned again. But, Sir, I wish to remark that it is not with the Returning Officer that the matter rests of sending Members to this House, but with the electors.

MR. LEWIS (Londonderry: The position which the Government have taken up with regard to this Bill I regard only as another instance of their submission to the Home Rule Party; at. I venture to say that no Member of MR. TOTTENHAM Winchester): I this House has ever had experience of also wish to point out to the hon. Memanything of the kind that has happened ber for Sligo Mr. Sexton) that the to-night. The hon. Gentleman the Secourse he has indicated is practically cretary to the Treasury has told the impossible. I understand that the ReCommittee that it is absolutely impos. solution has already been taken that ble that the Bill can go any further the House should adjourn till Thursday; and become law this Session; and, al- and as it is known that the Dissolution though there is active and important is announced to follow immediately it Business on the Paper that we are all is simply an absurd waste of the time anxious should be brought to an issue, of the House trying to pass the Bill we are expected to waste our time and through further stages here. the few remaining days of the Session in discussing the details of this measure. I repeat that the Government are conthing to do what they have been doing alang-that is, pursuing a course of a'ject submission to the Home Rule Party, which will enable us to show, both inside and outside the House, how Each they delight to serve their new

COLONEL NOLAN Galway, N.): I remind the Committee that we can take the third reading immediately after the Bill passes through Committee. If, then, the Government are sincere in what they have said, it is perfectly easy for them to go to the Lords with the Bill in time to get it passed into law when it comes back to us.

Question put.

MR SEXTON 'Sligo, S.: I point out that if the Committee shares the The Committee proceeded to a Diviepinion of the hon. Gentleman the Se.sion, and the CHAIRMAN stated he eretary to the Treasury, and desires that thought the Noes had it; and, his deci

is exhausted. While I do not wish to appear as a great optimist, I do not, on the other hand, desire to run into the opposite extreme; and, looking at the great remissions of taxation the Indian Government made about the years 1881 and 1882, looking to the steady progress of the Revenue of the country, to the great reduction that has been made in the uncovered Debt, to the steady in crease in the return from public works, and to the way in which the Indian Government has met the recent crisis, I think the position of Indian finance is not nearly so bad as my hon. Friend would have you believe, and with that statement I ask the Committee to agree to the Resolution.

Resolved, That it appears, by the Accounts laid before this House, that the Total Revenue ! of India for the year ending the 31st day of March 1885 was £70,690,681; that the Total

Expenditure in India and in England charged to Revenue was £71,077,127; that there was an excess of Expenditure over Revenue of £386,416, and that the Capital Outlay on Railways and Irrigation Works was £4,226,613, besides a Capital Charge of £1,314,746 in connection with the Purchase of the Eastern Bengal Railway, and in the Redemption of

Liabilities.

Resolution agreed to; to be reported upon Thursday.

MUNICIPAL FRANCHISE (IRELAND)
BILL.-[BILL 9.]

the House of Lords, where it would probably give rise to considerable discussion; and, looking at all the circumstances, I think it would be impossible that it should pass into law this Session. I suggest that the Bill should be withdrawn.

MR. SEXTON (Sligo, S.): The Lords have enjoyed the luxury of throwing out this Bill every year, and I suggest that we should give them another opportunity of dealing with it.

Question put.

The House divided:-Ayes 66; Noes 17: Majority 49.- Div. List, No. 141. Bill considered in Committee. (In the Committee.)

Clause 1 (Short title of Act).

MR. BRODRICK (Surrey, Guildford: I rise to move, Sir, that you do now report Progress. I do so for the purpose of calling attention to the very singular position in which we are placed by the hon. Gentleman representing the Government who spoke on the Motion for going into Committee, and informed the House that we were entering upon an absolutely futile proceeding. Well, Sir, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henry H. Fowler, having declared that it was a waste of time to go on with the Bill, then proceeded to vote for going into

(Mr. James O'Brien, Mr. Timothy Harrington, Committee-that is to say, he voted for

Mr. Richard Power, Mr. Mayne, Mr.
Peter M'Donald.)
COMMITTEE.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the

Chair."

wasting the time of Parliament and entering on an absolutely futile proceeding. I ask whether the Government intend at this hour to enter on an important measure like this under the circumstances which the hon. Gentleman has described? I am quite aware that a MR. LEWIS Londonderry, I think large number of Gentlemen representing we are entitled to know what is the view Irish constituencies are in their places; of Her Majesty's Government with re- but I would point out that the remainference to this Bill. I need hardly saying Business on the Paper is of a kind that it is a measure of serious importance, and it is difficult to believe that it is intended to be taken now, and at this period of the Session. Surely the Government will not allow the Bill to be dealt with under the circumstances.

which we ought to be anxious to bring to a practical issue, in order to prevent further loss of Bills occurring by any action of the other Chamber. For these reasons I trust the Motion I am about to make will be agreed to, so that we THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA. | may not be put to the farce of discuss. SURY Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER Woling a measure in detail which, as the verhampton, E.: I appeal to the hon. hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Member in charge of the Bill to con- Treasury has told us, cannot possibly sider whether it is advisable to proceed become law. with it. Whatever may happen to the Bill in this House, it will have to go to

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress,

and ask leave to sit again."-(Mr. | sufficient time for the purpose. Brodrick.)

only opponent of the Bill is the hon. Member who has just spoken, and he opposes it because he knows that if it passes into law the Corporation of Derry will be Nationalists, and because he

passes the Municipality of Derry will never again have a Tory Member. This is the only matter that underlies the hon. Gentleman's opposition. Another reason why we should go on now is that we can hold a short Sitting to-morrow, at which the Report and third reading of the Bill can be taken; and then, if the Lords pass the Bill, there is nothing easier than for the Government, in the interval before the Session closes, to pass the Bill into law. Under the circumstances, we shall certainly press the Committee on one point, and that is to allow the Bill to go through to-night.

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA. SURY Mr. HENRY H FOWLER) (Wolverhampton, E.: I simply stated the facts, and the position in which the Bill stool; it is, of course, for the Com-knows that if this Nationalist measure mittee to come to a decision upon those fats. I may state that my sympathy is entirely with this Bill, and my hope is to see it pass into law, although, as I have said, there are great difficulties in the way of its doing so this Session. As I have pointed out, the Committee will form their own conclusion on the subjeet. I do not see that there are many Amendments on the Paper; and, supping that the Bill passes through Committee, the Report stage can only be reached on Thursday. I need not go through the other stages that have to be taken, but will merely say that I should like the division to be a proof that this House is in favour of the Bill, and that the Government, who have been in favour of the Bill all along, are not to blame if it does not become law this Session.

SIR ROBERT FOWLER London: I have to refer to one extraordinary point in the remarks of the hon. Member for Sligo Mr. Sexton), who says that if there should be a Nationalist Mayor in Derry it will be impossible for my hon. Friend to be returned again. But, Sir, I wish to remark that it is not with the Returning Officer that the matter rests of sending Members to this House, but with the electors.

impossible. I understand that the Resolution has already been taken that the House should adjourn till Thursday; and as it is known that the Dissolution is announced to follow immediately it is simply an absurd waste of the time of the House trying to pass the Bill through further stages here.

MR. LEWIS (Londonderry: The position which the Government have taken up with regard to this Bill I regard only as another instance of their submission to the Home Rule Party; and I venture to say that no Member of MR. TOTTENHAM Winchester): I this House has ever had experience of also wish to point out to the hon. Memanything of the kind that has happened ber for Sligo Mr. Sexton) that the to-night. The hon. Gentleman the Secourse he has indicated is practically cretary to the Treasury has told the Committee that it is absolutely impos. sible that the Bill can go any further and become law this Session; and, although there is active and important Business on the Paper that we are all anxious should be brought to an issue, we are expected to waste our time and the few remaining days of the Session in discussing the details of this measure I repeat that the Government are contruing to do what they have been doing all along-that is, pursuing a course of abject submission to the Home Rule Party, which will enable us to show, both inside and outside the House, how much they delight to serve their new

If,

COLONEL NOLAN Galway, N.): I remind the Committee that we can take the third reading immediately after the Bill passes through Committee. then, the Government are sincere in what they have said, it is perfectly easy for them to go to the Lords with the Bill in time to get it passed into law when it comes back to us.

Question put.

MR SEXTON Sligo, S.: I point out that if the Committee shares the The Committee proceeded to a Diviopinion of the hon. Gentleman the Se.sion, and the CHAIRMAN stated he cretary to the Treasury, and desires that thought the Noes had it; and, his deci