THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: We could not do so. The Motion was blocked by the noble Lord.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: But that only means that it could not come on after half-past 12 o'clock. The Government were perfectly competent to bring the subject on at an earlier hour, when there was somebody who was in a position to examine it. All my noble Friend did was to insist that the discussion should take place at a time of night when people could give attention to it, and when matters of such extreme importance as the government of India, and the controversial question as to the numbers and composition of the Committee could be properly discussed and settled by those competent to do so. The Government, however, did not choose to give the time for this important subject, and they now fall foul of my noble Friend, because he insisted upon not going on after half-past 12, and they repeat a number of objections not stated publicly, and which, if they were to be discussed at all, should have been discussed across the floor of the other House of Parliament, in face of my noble Friend, and where a decision could have been come to. If the inquiry has failed, the responsibility for its failure rests with Her Majesty's Government.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: If Her Majesty' Government be in Office after the General Election they will again propose the appointment of the Indian Committee.

Motion agreed to. Orders discharged.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (RETURNING OFFICERS) ACT (1875) AMENDMENT BILL.-(No. 162.) (The Lord President of the Council, Earl Spencer.) SECOND READING.

ciple of the Bill, however, as it came up to their Lordships' House, was one which contained sufficient importance, in his judgment, to justify the Government in accepting it; and therefore it was that he had undertaken to move the second reading of the measure. In further corroboration of that statement, he had to point to the Bill of his noble Friend the Secretary for Scotland (the Earl of Dalhousie), who would move the second reading of the Bill relating to Scotland when the present one had been disposed of by their Lordships. That Bill was the same as this in its general principles. He need not enter into the history of the measure in "another place." Originally there were two Bills introduced dealing with this subject; one shortly after the other. One of the Bills, however, was withdrawn, and the Bill which was now before their Lordships received a second reading in the other House. As originally introduced in the House of Commons, it was a measure to enable the making of appeals to the Taxing Officer of a Higher Court, in matters relating to charges connected with the Returning Officer's expenses. That was a very important matter, especially with regard to Ireland. Subsequently, a clause was introduced reducing the maximum charges which a Returning Officer could make on various matters. This provision was thought necessary, as a great many changes had taken place since the Act of 1875, when the costs of ballot boxes, &c. were first charged for. Those charges had now been considerably reduced, and a clause had, therefore, been introduced in the Schedule reducing the charges. Lastly, there was the introduction of a clause to throw the cost of these charges on the public.

rates.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE: In the counties only.

EARL SPENCER said, all those clauses had one important bearing on elections. They tended to the reduction of the cost

position indeed if they showed themselves disposed to encourage unneces sary expenditure on the part of Returning Officers; for all expenditure of that sort must tend indirect to bribery and corruption at elections, as to which Parliament had, of late years, taken great pains to put down. He considered this measure to be one of very considerable importance, and one which excited very general interest in the country; and he should regret extremely if their Lordships put themselves in the false position of appearing to increaso the expenditure of elections at the present time. Therefore, he sincerely trusted their Lordships would pass the Bill, the second reading of which he would now move.

was desirable that no unnecessary check should be placed by the expenditure of elections on the return of those Members. There would always be a considerable personal expense connected with elections, quite independent of the necessary and unavoidable expenses which were connected with Returning Officers' charges; and he thought it was important and good policy to make these latter expenses as moderate as possible. He also cordially approved of the principle of throwing the charges on the rates, and hoped that the provision would be passed into law, just as much as the other part of the Bill dealing with the reduction of the maximum charges. The principle was no new one. At the elections of various Municipal Bodies, such as Sanitary Boards, Municipal Councils, and at those of School Boards, the expenses of the Returning Officers were charged on the public rates. He did not see why, if | the principle was right in the elections of Municipal Bodies, it should not be applied to Parliamentary Ele tions. He, therefore, thought it was equally just, and desirable to maintain the principle in this case too. He trusted that their Lordships would see fit to affirm the principle of the Bill. In regard to the portion of the Bill reducing the maximum charges of the Returning Officers, there was very little difference of opinion, and it was not a Party question. Members of the Front Opposition Bench in the other House took part in the dis cussion, and the clauses were amended by general consent. There was, how ever, he must say, some difference of opinion as to the clause he had referred to which threw the Returning Offi.er's expenses on to the rates, and likewise to ine Schedule reducing that officer's charges for printing. The noble Marquess opposite the Marquess of Salisbury had given Notice that he would move the rejection of the measure. He (Earl Spencer did not know whether the noble Marquess was desirous of throwing out the whole measure, or whether he wished to take the opinion of their Lordships only on that part of the Bill which referred to the charges being thrown on the rates. He hoped, if their Lordships wished to express an opinion upon that matter only, they would do so, and not contest the whole subject-matter of the Buil. It seemed to him that their

Mored, "That the Bill be now read 2a.” The Lord President of the Council, Earl Spencer.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, the noble Earl opposite Earl Spencer) had justly told the House that the Bill was not, in the other House, a Government measure. That was a very interesting statement, because it pointed out to them the extremely delicate and artificial character of the promises that were made by Her Majesty's Government. On Thursday, the 10th of this month, the Prime Minister announced that no contentious Business in the hands of any Member of the Government would be proceeded with; but he did not say that contentious Business not then in their hands, but which would be put into their hands a few days afterwards, would not be proceeded with; and, no doubt, that constituted in the mind of the Prime Minister an enormous distinction. What the Government had done was this-they had promised that the contentious Business in their own hands should be dropped, and this they had done; but other Business in other people's hands had not been dropped, and this they were now pushing on; and that was their idea of keeping a Parliamentary promise. The Bill consisted of three parts. As it was introduced, as it passed the second reading, as it was passed through the Committee of the House of Commons, it was an unobjectionable Bill, seeing that it was a Bil for the purpose of providing an appeal for the more accurate taxation

Bill had remained in that form, he the Marquess of Salisbury) did not supposo that a single noble Lord would have raised any objection to it, or any discussion about it. That part of the Bill was, to his mind, purely unobjectionable; and if Her Majesty's Government were willing-as he judged from some words of the noble Earl-to accopt the proposal to reduce the Bill to its original dimensions as it left the first Committee in the House of Commons, and were willing to make it their own in that sense, he would willingly withdraw all opposition to the Bill. But subsequently to that stage additions had been made to the Bill. It was re-committed, and there were two additions made to it. The first was the addition of the Schedule reducing the prices to which the Returning Officers were entitled-and which had been settled after much consultation by the Act of 1875, to charge for certain duties which they did at the election. He thought that the Act of 1875 was introduced by Sir Henry James. It was carefully considered, and he believed it was thought satisfactory. He was not at all saying that that Act was incapable of revision, and it was possible that the prices charged might be examined with advantage. But they had not been examined. There was no Committee appointed to consider them; there was no evidence before their Lordships to show the grounds on which the arbitrary figures now inserted in the Schedule were substituted for those existing at present by law. The operation had been performed at the beginning of June of putting the Schedule into the Bill, and naturally the Returning Officers-especially imagining it to be an Irish Bill-the English Returning Officers did not bestir themselves very much about it till the discussions had taken place recently, and then they awoke to what was going on. He had received a large number of representations from Returning Officers in every part of the country, complaining that this new Schedule of prices had been inserted in the Bill apparently without any examination or evidence as to their justness, and that some of them were utterly absurd. He would give some instances of the objections which they took. In the first place, the deposit which had to be made by candidates was very largely reduced. Now, their Lordships would

see that these deposits were a very important matter; because they did not always know that when a candidate had passed through his election he was a person from whom they might get anything. They might or they might not; and, therefore, it was only reasonable that some kind of security should be given to the Returning Officer that he should be enabled to recover those charges, and so that he should not be put to the difficult processes of law in order to recover. Under the present law, the deposit required in a county of averago size was from £550 to £700. Under the law as it was to be, the deposit was reduced to £200. The fall was, therefore, very great. If the fall was too great, the loss fell entirely on the Returning Officer-that was to say, on the Sheriffs. It was but reasonable, therefore, that they should take precautions to ascertain, before they allowed this great change, that it had not been made unjustly. Then, again, by the law as it stood at present, £7 78. were allowed to the Returning Officer for fitting up a polling booth; the Bill reduced the sum to £2. There were other matters of much smaller degree; for instance, the charge for a ballot box was to be 108., whereas, under the law as it at present stood, it was £1 18.; 108. was allowed for a stamping instrument under the Act of 1875, but it was now proposed to reduce that sum to 2s. 6d. ; and he was informed that no good stamping instrument could be bought for less than 78. 6d. The result of all this was hard, indeed, on the Returning Officers. He had communications from Returning Officers in Essex, Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Middlesex, some Irish Returning Officers, and from the Town Clerk of Flint, who acted as Returning Officer in neighbouring Welsh counties, and they all stated that these reductions had been made without any facts to base them on, and would be eminently unjust. A Returning Officer for the county of Middlesex said that, under the Bill as it now stood, it was perfectly clear that the next Elcetion would cost the Sheriffs and Under Sheriffs a considerable sum under the present scale, and that the present Bill would be properly called "A Bill for fining the Sheriffs £500 a-piece." He did not think anyone would desire that those expenses should be greater than they need be; but they ought to pause