cal School of Manchester was still in embryo; but it was generally conceded that there was no better Medical School in the Kingdom than that which existed in the University of Aberdeen. Aberdeen was the only University in the whole United Kingdom which was proposed to be dealt with in this manner; and he thought the two English Universities should be bracketed in the matter of representation as originally proposed, rather than those of Aberdeen and St. Andrew's. He could not understand what could have induced the Lord President of the Council to cast such a slur on the University of Aberdeen, of which he the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) had the honour to be Chancellor. He would, therefore, ask their Lordships to accept his Amendment, and to insert in the clause the words "the University of Aberdeen and the University of St. Andrew's." Mored, in page 5, to leave out lines 3, 4, 5, and 6, and insert The University of Aberdeen." "The University of St. Andrew's.")-(The Duke of Richmond and Gordon.) other Bodies in the United Kingdom capable of examining in medicine. Nationality had nothing to do with the question, and if Scotland had a large number of representatives it was only in consequence of the great number of Universities and Schools of Medicine that she possessed. THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Earl SPENCER) said, that he was unable to accept the Amendment of the noble Duke, because his doing so would cause a great deal of dissatisfaction, and raise difficulties and objections which were now set at rest. The noble Duke opposite had charged him with showing want of respect for the University of Aberdeen. He had no desire whatever to do that; but if he had done so the noble Duke himself had done the same in former years, because in two Bills which the noble Duke proposed Aberdeen was linked with St. Andrew's. Aberdeen had never had distinct representation, but had always been linked with another University. The Amendment, if adopted, would not only destroy the balance between the three countries; it would also destroy the balance between the different Corporations and Universities, and cause great difficulty. Moreover, there was a section of the Bill which enabled the Privy Council at any future time to increase the direct representation, and, if it should think fit, to give any University distinct and separate representation. He trusted that the noble Duke would be content with that clause, and would THE EARL OF MILLTOWN said, he hoped that the House would not accept the Amendment moved by his noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon). Nothing could be further from the intentions of the framers of the Bill than to cast any slur upon the Universities of Aberdeen and St. Andrew's. The question of the number of representatives of each part of the United Kingdom had been discussed, and after great difficulty a compromise had been agreed upon by which Eng-withdraw his Amendment. land was to have eight, Scotland six, THE EARL OF ROSSE said, he was enand Ireland five representatives. If the tirely opposed to the Amendment, conproposal of the noble Duke were carried tending that there was very great obit would entirely upset this arrange-jection to making the alteration proment. The Universities of England posed. were to have five Members, those of Scotland three, and those of Ireland only two; but if the Amendment should be agreed to, he would propose that the University of Dublin should have two members, instead of one, on the Council. THE DUKE OF ARGYLL, in support ing the Amendment, said that, speaking on behalf of Scotland, he should not object to Ireland having any number of representatives on the Board, if she had as many Bodies qualified to examine as Scotland had. It was entirely a question of the number of University and The Duke of Richmond and Gordon THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON said, he should go to a division. On Question, "That the lines proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause?" Their Lordships dit ided:-Contents 41; Not-Contents 44: Majority 3. Resolted in the negative. Clause amended, and agreed to. Remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendments. Schedule agreed to. The Report of the Amendments to be received fo-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. No. 187.) PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS IMPROVEMENT (The Earl of Jersey.) SECOND READING. were very few cases in which jurors Order of the Day for the Second Read-Judge in such a matter. ing read. THE EARL OF JERSEY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object was to enable the Sanitary Authorities to make certain improvements in private streets and to charge the cost to the owners. The measure contained provisions which would secure the protection of the pri vate owners. Mored, "That the Bill be now read 2'." -The Earl of Jersey.) LORD HALSBURY said, he thought that many of the provisions of the measure were objectionable, and that their Lordships would be taking a great responsibility upon themselves if they were to pass it at this period of the Session, when it was impossible that it could receive due consideration. LORD SUDELEY for the Local Government Board said, that Department had carefully considered the measure, and they were of opinion that it ought to be allowed to pass. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2 accord ingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow. It LORD HALSBURY said, he entirely concurred with what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, and hoped that their Lordships would not agree to the second reading of that Bill. On Question? Resolved in the negative. TITHE RENT - CHARGE (EXTRAORDI NARY) REDEMPTION BILL. (No 174.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading read. LORD SUDELEY (for the Home Department, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the subject of Extraordinary Tithe had constantly been before Parliament, and in 1881 a Select Committee of the the whole subject. They reported in House of Commons went very fully into favour of the abolition of those charges; but up to this time it had been found impossible to pass any Bill. This year three Bills were introduced in the House of Commons, and were referred to a Select Committee. The result of that Committee was that they reported in JURORS' DETENTION BILL-(No. 142.) favour of that Bill. It was agreed to (The Lord FitzGerald.) SECOND READING. as a fair compromise amid many difficult and complicated questions connected Order of the Day for the Second Read- with it, and contained many of the good ing read. LORD FITZGERALD), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object was to enable a Judge, if he should think fit, in the graver cases of felony lasting several days, to allow the jurors to separate and to go home. Mored, "That the Bill be now read 2" -The Lord FitzGerald, THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSHELL said, he was unable to assent to the proposal contained in the points in the other Bills. He believed that the Committee, which was a very strong one, and represented all the different interests in this matter, were almost unanimous in favour of that compromise. As the House was aware, great interest attached to the question, and the state of feeling which occasionally arose in the counties of Kent and Sussex made it most important that that settlement should not be delayed. The greatest possible friction existed, and riots had often occurred, and men had been sent to prison; while there pre those two counties that it was an unfair | that the Commissioners of Queen Anne's burden which should be settled in a Bounty objected to the Bill being passed reasonable way. The Committee of on the ground that they were seriously 1881 saidaffected, and had not had an opportunity of giving evidence before the Select Committee. He hardly knew how that could be; but, at any rate, he trusted that no objection would be raised at that stage. As he had already said, that was practically the outcome of two Select Committees, and he asked their Lordships to give the Bill a second reading as a fair compromise to all concerned. "Most of the witnesses had agreed in the opinion that the imposition of extraordinary tithe is an impediment to agriculture, hampering new cultivation, and that it should be removed if possible. .. They were also in favour of redemption on equitable terms, but there was great difference of opinion as to the mode of such redemption and the terms on which it should be made compulsory." .... The Act containing the provisions respecting Extraordinary Tithe was imposed in 1836 as a compromise between the view taken by Lord John Russell and that taken by Mr. Hume. The result was title on hops, fruit, and vegetables was separated from the ordinary tithe, but was attached to the crop, so that when that particular cultivation ceased the Extraordinary Tithe ceased to be payable. Sir James Caird pointed out, in his evidence before a Select Committee in 1881, that the great difficulty in the question of redemption was due, in a great measure, to this vanishing quantity, since the tithepayer might discontinue the cultivation and cease to pay. The object of the present Bill was to commute the present Extraordinary Tithe into a fixed rent-charge, at what might be considered fair market value by the Land Commissioners on each farm. The mode of estimating that was carefully set out in Clause 3. Although hops could not be grown on one piece of land more than 10 or 12 years, another piece of land was generally substituted, and that was to be taken into consideration; while, on the other hand, the right of the cultivator to discontinue that special cultivation was to be considered. The object had been to state the case in a thoroughly fair manner, and it would be impossible to find a fairer tribunal than the Land Commissioners. Clause 4 fixed the interest at 4 per cent. There were powers of redemption and other matters of detail with which he would not trouble their Lordships. He was told that all the Members for Kent were in favour of the Bill, which he thought proved it was a fair compromise. Of this there could be no doubt that it was greatly to the interest of all concerned, landlords, tenants, clergy, and the public at large, to have that much-vexed question settled. He was informed, at the last moment, Mored, "That the Bill be now read 2a." (The Lord Sudeley.) LORD HARRIS said, that the Bill would crystallize and make unalterable that which at present was possessed of elasticity. By this Act they were going to make compulsory a perpetual payment for the cultivation which might not exist in 10 years' time. They had also to remember that in this matter of hops they were likely to be subject to much foreign competition, and he should not be surprised to see in a few years a largely increased amount of foreign hops, whether from America or elsewhere, coming into competition with the product of this country. The result of this state of things must be a curtailment of the acreage of land growing hops; and, in view of this contingency, they were about to fix a perpetual charge on land which might not, in the course of a few years, be able to compete with land not in cultivation. As a tithepayer, he was glad that the Bill had been introduced, if only to put an end to those unfortunate scenes of violence and riot which had taken place in certain portions of our Southern counties. He did not blame those persons who resisted the tithes so much as those other persons who, possessing education and intelligence, were guilty of inciting them. The Bill was based on agitation; but still he trusted that its results would be beneficial. EARL BEAUCHAMP said, he did not object to the second reading of the Bill on the same grounds as his noble Friend who had just spoken. It was said that the Bill was a compromise; but he should like to know who were the parties to the compromise? The persons really interested in this question were the clergy. He had but recently received communications from clergy ན men, stating that the clergy, as a body, and before the House of Commons also. had not had an opportunity of examining The present arrangement with regard the Bill, and how far the ir interests were to that portion of tithe which was affected by it. He deprecated attempts called "extra-ordinary" was introduced of this kind being made to hurriedly in 1836 in the interest, not of the clergy, piss, at the close of a Parliament, a com- but of the tithepayers, and at their own plicated measure of this character, espe- request; and if the tithepayers wished ally when it had not received that now that a change should be made, he attention to which it was entitled. might safely say, on the part of the clergy, that they had no objection, provided a just and equitable arrangement were made. The Bill did provide a tribunal to which none of the clergy objected. If the Land Commissioners. were unable to say what the real value of the tithe was, and to carry out the arrangement with perfect equity, no tribunal could do so. Some good points had been introduced into the Bill, such, for instance, as the estimation of each parcel of land affected. Regard being had to its antiquity, it would be only right that priority should be distinctly assigned to that charge over all incumbrances; and if ordered to be paid by the landowner a great stumbling block would be removed out of the way of the clergy. He had consulted many authorities on the subject, and he was assured by them that this was as fair a compro mise as could be expected under the circumstances. He had had no oppor THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and CHANDO) said, he would refrain from entering into the merits of the Bill, or from discussing the principle of the compromise. He wished to draw attention to the fact that the Bill affected, to a very considerable extent, the income of the clergy. It dealt with charges which had been created by Parliament under the sanction of Parliament on the security of income arising from tithe rent-charges. Parliament had authorized the clergy to borrow, for certain purposes, on the incomes of their incumbencies. In doing so it also limited the amount which should be raised, fixing the amount at four years' income of the incumbency. A large number of mortgazes now existed. Among the hop parishes he found that there were no fewer than 150 mortgages, towards the payment of which £5,000 was received last year from the incomes of the bene-tunity of consulting his clergy who were fees. If the income of the clergy were reduced, if they received no adequate compensation for what they were about to give up, they would suffer great hardship for many years in the endeavour to pay off these charges. Had the Bill not been so hastily pressed forward, this question, it was hoped, would have received adequate consideration. The adoption of that course of procedure had also caused great inconvenience, for until the 15th instant the clergy could not obtain a copy of the Bill as amended in Committee, and up till Saturday they were not able to get a copy of the Bill as it passed the other House. He hoped the Bill would not be hurried forward until fair opportunity was given to the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty to most interested, and he ought to have had an opportunity. But they all knew, and deeply felt, that the spiritual work of the Church was greatly hindered, not only in particular parishes, where the disgraceful scenes of disorder had occurred, but in other parishes, and in the whole Church. The sore had been kept open many years, and was likely to continue open, unless the compromise were agreed to. He was disposed, therefore, to think that this was such a compromise as it would be wise for the clergy, as well as the laity, to accept. He should consent to the second reading if they were assured that the Government would give a fair and candid consideration to the objections which were being urged by the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty. The payment of the mortgages THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY was to them the key of the position, and Dr. BENSON said, he quite agreed that if they received the pledge he had monthe difficulties of the question were very tioned they would offer no opposition to great, and they had been greatly in-the Bill; but he hoped a distinct assur creased by the speel with which the ance would be given on that point. present attempt to legislate on the sub. state their case. THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR he understood there would be a deputation from the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty to-morrow at the Home Office, and the objections which they had to urge would be seriously weighed and considered. He could only hope that they would be able to arrive at such an understanding as would enable the Bill to become law in the present Session. Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow. SHOP HOURS REGULATION BILL. (The Lord Sudeley.) (No. 186.) SECOND READING. VISCOUNT CRANBROOK said, that he did not intend to oppose the Bill, though he was not very sanguine that any good would result from it. Without Inspectors it was impossible to ascertain whether the Act was being complied with, or to take steps for enforcing it. As, however, it might possibly be of some benefit, he should not raise any opposition to its passing. THE EARL OF WEMYSS said, that he would reserve his opposition to the Bill till its next stage. EARL BEAUCHAMP gave Notice that in Committee he would move the omission of the Proviso applying the Bill to public-houses and houses of refreshment. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2 accordOrder of the Day for the Second Read-ingly, and committed to a Committee of ing read. LORD SUDELEY (for the Home Department), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it had been passed by the other House of Parliament on the recommendation of a Select Committee which had sat on the subject. It was intended to put a stop to the excessive length of time that young persons were sometimes employed in shop, in some cases 85 hours a week, especially in districts frequented by the working classes. In wholesale warehouses it was also found that the packing and entering clerks were detained until very late at night. It had been found impossible to take any step towards compulsory closing at certain times; but all parties seemed agreed that this Bill went a long way in the right direction. The Bill had been before a Select Committee, and had been thoroughly considered. Under Clause 3, no young person could be employed longer than 74 hours in one week, including meal hours. Under Section 2, no person could be employed in a shop who had already been employed in a factory or workshop for the number of hours specified in the Act of 1875. The only objection that had been raised to the Bill had been that there was no way of insuring its being carried out. It had been found quite impossible to appoint Inspectors at present; but all parties were satisfied that the moral effect of the Bill would be very great. Mored, "That the Bill be now read 2a.” -The Lord Sudeley.) the Whole House To-morrow. SEA FISHING BOATS (SCOTLAND) BILL [N.L.] Commons amendments considered (according to order); several agreed to; one disagreed to, and one agreed to with amendments: A Committee appointed to prepare a reason to be offered to the Commons for the said disagreement: The Committee to meet forthwith: Report from the Committee of a reason prepared by them; read, and agreed to; and a message sent to the Commons to return the said Bill with the reason and amendments. COUNTY COURTS CONSOLIDATION BILL. (The Lord Chancellor.) (NO. 151.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading read. THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that he did not intend to proceed further with that Bill. It was a measure to consolidate into one Act the law relating to County Courts now contained in no less than 11 Acts of Parliament. He only wished to move the second reading for the purpose of calling attention to the Bill, for however carefully a Consolidation Bill might be drawn it was impossible to avoid slips and errors. He should be, therefore, obliged if those interested would favour him with criticisms on the measure. Mored, "That the Bill be now read 2'." -The Lord Chancellor.) Motion agreed to: Bill read 2 accord ingly. |