bo led to infer from the Amendment of India is not anxious that the House of which my hon. Friend the Member for Commons should take a very rosy view Funtshire (Mr. S. Smith has given as to the financial state of India. I Notice, I hope that in the coming year imagine that the financial state of India the Estimate of Receipts will not fail, and is one which requires careful considerathat it may not be necessary to diminish tion and careful management. With the expenditure, especially upon useful careful consideration and careful maworks. The Government of India have nagement the financial state of India is been obliged to postpone many works one that will bear favourable comparison which they would have liked to have with the financial state of any other carried out, on account of the construe-country. The hon. Gentleman, in alton of the Frontier Railways; but, whenluding to the Debt of India, has quoted ths have been completed, it is hoped figures which go to show that the Debt that they may be able to resume the of India is in reality much smaller than expenditure on those productive works it appears on paper, and I think he which add so much to the resources of | brought the actual uncovered Debt down In lia, and do so much to improve the to £60,000,000. That is true to a cercondition of the people of India. Itain extent. But to arrive at this figure fool that I have trespassed at very great length upon the time of the Committee, a. i I thank them for the attention they have paid to my Statement. I hope that my explanation has been clear, and I beg, in conclusion, to move the formal Resolution.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That it appears, by the Accounts laid be fr the year en ling the 31st day of March 1985 was £70,640,681; that the Total Expenditure in India and in England charged to Revenue was £71 077,127, that there was an excess of Experature over Revenue of £386,446, and

fre this House, that the Total Revenue of India

that the Capital Outlay on Railways and Irri

□ Works was 24,226,613, besides a Capital Change of £1,514,746 in connection with the Purse of the Eastern Bengal Railway, and in the Redemption of Liabilities." -(M. Nagid ll ward,,

the assets have been calculated at their full value, and that value can only be maintained while our position in India is secured as a strong one. If you allow your political position to be weakened or demoralized your assets will undoubtedly suffer very greatly in value, and your Debt will soon mount up. The hon. Gentleman has kept very closely to figures; and whether from a wish to spare the time of the Committee, or from some other cause, he has not given the Committee any general information as to the condition of Indian affairs generally. The only disadvantage of the kind of statement which the hon. Gentleman has made is that it is very difficult to follow him at all in immediate debate into the numerous and complicated figures that he has quoted. At LOED RANDOLPH CHURCHILL the same time, although numerous and Paddington, 8: I quite agree with complicated, I have no doubt of their the hon. Gentleman who has just sat accuracy. The officials at the India down that there is nothing whatever in Office are not accustomed to make errors the financial condition of India, so far in accounts; but, at the same time, in as it has been explained to-night, or so order to comment and argue upon the far as he has been able to learn it, which figures, it is necessary first of all to see would in any degree warrant the Amend- them in print before being able to critiment which the hon. Member for Flint-cize them. In a ldition to this fact, it is shire Mr S. Smith has placed on the jobvious that this is not a very favourPaper. There is certainly nothing in able opportunity for any exhaustive conthe financial con lition of India to cause sideration of Indian affairs. Other matgrave anxiety, nor can it be argued, ters are occupying the mind of the with any amount of force that the ex- House of Commons, and the attendance penditure is excessive, or that it necessi- of Members is exceedingly slender. tates a resort to taxes repugnant to Therefore, I cannot but think that ParNative opinion. These are propositions liament would have a better opportunity which I do not imagine for a moment of going into these matters later in the the hon Member would be able to per- year. If, however, the Committee will suade the Committee are in any degree allow me to occupy its attention for a accurate. At the same time, I am sure few minutes, I should like to make two

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India as time goes on. The Committee may not receive that statement with pleasure; but that it is a true statement I defy anybody to contradict. The total change which last year came over the Indian Empire, owing to the Russian advance, made itself felt to the extent of £2,000,000 of your Expenditure. Therefore, I altogether differ from the hon. Gentleman when he describes to the Committee the increase in Indian Expenditure as being due to extraordinary causes.

MR. STAFFORD HOWARD: I said that the £2,000,000 were to be considered as a permanent increase.

inquiry than criticism. The hon. Gentle- | Army, but that you will, in all probaman commenced by announcing a change bility, have to increase your Army in in the form of Account. I imagine that I am at any rate in recent years-the only Minister responsible for the India Office who has brought forward a Budget which did not announce a change in the form of Account. These changes are made nearly every year, and are exceedingly inconvenient, for they prevent anyone but an experienced financier being able to compare one year's Statement with another. The English form of Accounts is scarcely ever changed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will correct me if I am wrong; but I think the same form of account is presented year after year. Constant changes in the form of Account are only calculated to lead to confusion. Not only have changes been made in the form of Accounts, but they have been made in such a way as to be extremely inconvenient. However, I content my self with that remark, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be of opinion that the time has now arrived when no further changes should be made, and that there will be an undertaking that, at any rate for the next 10 years, the Accounts will remain as they are. Sir, the hon. Gentleman has alluded to the increase in the Indian Expenditure-an increase amounting to rather more than £2,000,000 over the Expenditure of the year 1884-5-an increase entirely owing to military expenditure; and the hon. Gentleman said that the increase was mainly due to extraordinary charges. There I must take issue with the hon. Gentleman altogether. It is one of the peculiar features of Liberal Ministers, when addressing the House of Commons on questions of finance, to represent to the House of Commons that any expenditure incurred by them is extraordinary expenditure due to causes over which they can exercise no control-causes which will rapidly pass away if the administration of affairs remain in their hands. Now, the Committee would be altogether in error if they were to imagine for a moment that any of this increase is of an extraordinary nature. I hold that it is strictly normal, and that it will have to be kept up for an indefinite time; that you will not be able to reduce your Army in India. and, consequently, that you will not be able to reduce the cost of your

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL : I did not hear the word "permanent.' I was very much struck by that portion of the hon. Gentleman's speech; but if he says now that it will be a permanent increase of Expenditure, then I withdraw my remarks on that subject. Then the hon. Gentleman alluded to the whole of the £8,000,000 and over deficit which is put down upon this Paper under the head of Revised Estimate. [Mr. STAFFORD HOWARD: Extraordinary.] Exactly; £5,000,000 of which is capital outlay on railways and irrigation works not charged to Revenue, and is due to extraordinary causes; but then that might, to some extent, mislead the Committee. I do not doubt that it will be necessary for the Indian Government to go on spending money at the Indian Frontier for some time, and I am also of opinion that the more you continue to fortify that Frontier the more you will have to expend, and that the Com. mittee will not be wise to look on it as likely to arrive at anything like a perfect state under a period of, say, 10 years. I do not say that you will have to expend £5,000,000 a-year on Frontier Railways; but I say that the whole of your Expenditure must not be put down as altogether extraordinary, and that the expenditure on fortifications will add to the sum which the hon. Gentleman says is a permanent charge some further considerable sums of money. Now, the hon. Gentleman alluded to some charges of extravagance brought by persons acquainted with Indian affairs against the Government of India in respect of the Expenditure; and the hon. Gentleman quoted figures, which he

stances whatever, to allow either the petroleum springs or the ruby mines of Upper Burmah to pass out of the hands of the Government of India. There is another report which I also see in the Press about which I will take this opportunity of inquiring. It has been stated, with regard to the seat of Government, that the Committee appointed to inquire into the State Expenditure of India have recommended that the Government should be permanently established at Simla. Well, Sir, I hope the hon. Member will contradict this statement, or, if not, that he will be able to inform the Committee that nothing will induce the Secretary of State to entertain that idea, because I cannot imagine anything more fatal to the efficiency of the Government than that it should be for the whole year in Simla. The question raised by the Finance Committee is a very grave one; and, so far from recommending the establishment of the Government at Simla all the year round, I am of opinion that it would be much better if the Government never went to Simla at all. In rearranging your system, as it may be you will have to do before long, the question will arise as to whether Calcutta is the proper place for the seat of Government; and when that time does arrive I am certain that if it should be decided to change the location of the Government in India at all it will not be to Simla, but much more probably to a place like Poonah, surrounded by the most splendid and salubrious Hill Stations that can be found in India, and where the whole administration could be economically conducted. Finally, I have to thank the Committee for allow ing me to make these comments, and to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the clear statement which he has made.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirkcaldy, &c.): The noble Lord, in the sentence in which he referred to the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Flintshire (Mr. S. Smith), said that my hon. Friend was not right in his view of Indian finance; and he then at once proceeded to say that a very great expenditure was coming upon us; but I do not remember that he suggested any mode by which that expenditure could be met. Therefore, I shall be glad to have an opportunity of hearing my hon. Friend the Member for Flintshire on this occasion. I sympathize with the,

Motion which he has placed on the Paper; but I do not intend specially to refer to it, further than to say that I think there is good cause to believe that the financial position of India may reasonably be considered a subject for grave anxiety. In listening to the statement of the Under Secretary I could not help feeling much of that anxiety. I confess that I have always been somewhat of a pessimist in regard to Indian finance, because I looked forward to a bad time coming when we should be landed in a heavy deficit, which I am afraid is now upon us. With regard to the Budget of the present year, it appears that with the utmost endeavours all that the Government of India can obtain is a bare equilibrium between Revenue and Expenditure. In the first place, a considerable sum of money is to be got by disturbing the arrangements of the Local Governments, and mulcting them in large sums; secondly, by imposing a considerable amount of new taxation; and next, I observe that no provision is made for contingencies likely to arise, and which may necessitate further expenditure. I have always found that some such contingencies do happen in India; but no provision is made for them. Therefore I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Flintshire that there is grave cause for anxiety, an anxiety which is not relieved by the statement of the hon. Gentleman with regard to this deficit. I have always observed that it has been the function of the Secretary for India to put a couleur de rose statement of Debt before the Committee; and I think that on this occasion the hon. Gentleman has given to his statement something of that tint. It is impossible to follow out here the many changes that have been made in the Accounts, especially in respect of debts. I am slow to think that they are in such a position as my hon. Friend supposes. I have followed the Accounts year after year, and it seems to me that, as a matter of reality, they have largely increased. With regard to the Estimates of the value of the works, they are the Estimates of engineers, which, according to my experience, are very apt to be too favourable, and I cannot believe that the statement with regard to the works is not somewhat too favourable. I cannot follow the figures; but this I do knowthat engineers are sanguine people, and

taken. It seems that the Government at last yielded to the pressure of what I may call the French "scare." Now, I admit that there was something in that "scare;" but I say that we had given the French some reason for jealousy in Egypt and elsewhere, and that we ought not to be too ready to take offence when anything is done in Madagascar, in the New Hebrides, and in other parts. It was very necessary, no doubt, that some. thing should be done; but it would seem that the administration might have been left in the hands of the Native Rulers. But, Sir, we have annexed the country, and if it proves to be a good annexation, and if the Burmese turn out to be quiet and peaceable subjects, I, for one, shall not further blame the Government; on the other hand, if the annexation should prove to be an unfortunate one, then I think those who made it will have to answer for it. I do not readily accept the sanguine views given of the Revenue of Upper Burmah, as I have already stated; and one reason why I doubt that the same profitable result will take place from the annexation of Upper Burmah which followed upon that of Lower Burmah is because in the latter case the result is due to the enormous produce of rice, from which the supplies of the

very much given to estimating incorrectly in respect of public works, and therefore I think the hon. Gentleman will do well to take the view of the noble Lord the late Secretary of State for India Lord Randolph Churchill. I think that the present unfortunate state of Indian finance has been brought about by three causes. First, by the alvance of Russia on our Indian Frontier. I am one of those who, nearly 40 years ago, advanced the opinion that we should not go beyond the line of the Indus; but we have done so, and I think, so far from expecting in future any reduction of Expenditure, or that we shall be able to keep it within, its present limits, we must accept the view which is put by the noble Lord the late Secretary of State for India, that, in addition to the present increase, a very large expenditure must be incurred in years to come, and one which will constitute a heavy burden indeed upon, Indian finance. I believe that such expenditure cannot be avoided in the preBent circumstances. I am afraid the noble Lord takes rather too favourable a view of the finances of Burmah. I very much doubt whether the estimated Revenue will be realized in the present year; and I absolutely doubt that the est of occupation, both civil and mili-world are principally taken, whereas tary, of Upper Burmah will in the end be found to be anything like £100,000. I believe it will be greatly in excess of that amount. Looking at the circumstances, I feel that those Members of the House of Commons who resisted the annexation of Upper Burmah are not liable to very great blame for the course they took in that respect; and those who failed actively to do so are not altogether debarred from criticism. As originally I was opposed to going beyond the Indus, so I was opposed to our going beyond the natural limit of India on the East, and, therefore, opposed to our going into Burmah at all. Stil, I was also willing to admit that being there we might go beyond our first limits if we had a just and expedient cause for annexation; but it seemed to me that the Government annexed Upper Burmah at their own risk, and that, having annexed it, it was their duty to show justification. When the Blue Book was published I found that it disclosed wholly insufficient reasons for the course that had been

there is little rice produced in Upper Burmah-on the contrary, it largely imports rice for the purpose of consumption. I sincerely hope that the disturbances which are now taking place there will quiet down. Before I go from the subject of Upper Burmah, I wish to say Sir Charles Bernard, who has been much attacked, is one of the most able and energetic, and, at the same time, self-denying men in the service of the Government, and I have the greatest confidence that he will do justice to the people--I am satisfied that he will do justice without any seltish object, and solely for the benefit of the people. But Sir Charles Bernard was always against the annexation of Upper Burmah; he resisted it for years; he has only been pushed into it at the last moment; he has now to administer the country, and when it was annexed I do not think that he was given sutficient control over the Military Autho rities. I feel confident that it is not to him personally that blame is to be attached. What man can do he will do. The greatest difficulty as to our Indian

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