Anfw.

Answ.

upon fuch poor and weak grounds; this great afperfion, and huge out-cry, that these men would have all religions fuffered, and in that way, there is no help against any Heriticall Congregations, moulders and vanishes away before you.

Let no man yet fay, All this that hath been faid is nothing.

If you be confcientious who hear them fay fo, your owne breafts muft needs fuggeft an anfwer; furely these things would be very much to me, to prevaile with my confci

ence.

But what if Congregations refuse to give account of their wayes? what if they will not shem so much confcientiousnesse, as to regard admonitions, declaring against them, withdrawing communion from them?

So we may fay, what if they will not regard your delive. ring them up to Satan, but will go on ftill?

You will fay then, you will complain to the Magiftrate, his power muft come in to affift, to make them regard what the Church doth.

But now you have no further help from any intrinsicall power the Church hath; and as for fubjection to the Magiftrate, there we are upon equall ground, if he will interpofe, he may affift and fecond the fentence of judging men fubverters of faith, of withdrawing communion from them in the one, as well as the fentence of giving men up to Satan in the other; and we must still be fubject here to fuffer what is inflicted, if we cannot do what is required; onely we do not go fo far as fome do, in this one thing, whereas they lay a Law upon the confciences of Magiftrates, that (they are bound to affift with their power the decrees of the church, taking cognisance only of the fact of the Church, that they have thus decreed, not enquiring into the nature of the things, we dare not lay any fuch bond upon the Magiftrates

confcience.

But fay,that he is to affift the Church both upon the knowledg of what the Church hath done, and the knowledg of the nature of the thing, feeing every private man hath this power to be judg of his own act, it were a great mifery upon thofe who have power over men, to be denyed this powe ́.

If it fhall be faid, But furely they do not agree so far, they do not come up to thefe fix things mentioned. To that I anfwer, I do not in the fe deliver only mine own judgment, but by what I know of the judgments of all thofe Brethren wich whom I have occafion to converse by conference both before and fince; I ftand charged to make it good to be their judgements alfo ; yea, it hath been both theirs and mine for divers years, even then when we never thought to have enjoyed our our own Land again; and if it be fo, then let the Lord be judg between us and our Brethren, for those lowd and grievous out-cryes there hath been againft us in this thing.

But if the difference be fo little, why doe they not come in? We come as far as we have light to guide us, we dare not ftep one ftep in the dark; if we do, we fhall certainly fall into fin; whatsoever elfe we fall into, what ever the thing be to others, it would be our fin, if there were no other reafon, but because we venture in the dark. We fayl up to our Brcthren as far as we can see the Line of Truth, and beyond it we dare not venture in the leaft.

The controverfie is not about little or great trouble, or inconvenience 3 if it were, fuch a charge might well make us blush, the inconvenience or trouble is little, yet a few men wil not yeeld to their Brethren, who are many, for peace fake, but the controverfie is about fin: now whether that be little or great, the difference cannot but remain, if one part shall urge upon another that which to them is fin, as to acknowledg any one thing to be a power of Chrift, which he cannot fee Chrift hath owned in his word, muft needs be therefore the way to peace, is not the neceffity of coming up one to another, because the thing is little, but the louing, and peaceable, and brotherly carriage of one towards another, because the difference is but small.

CHAP.

CHAP. VIII.

The third dividing Principle, That nothing which is conceived to be evill, is to be fuffered.

Th

His is the other extream; fome think all things should be fuffered, and they are loofe, and cause divifions on the one hand; others thinke nothing is to be fuffered, and these are rigid, and caufe divifions on the other hand; If any thing be conceived evil, either in opinion or pra&ife, if inftructions and perfwafions cannot reform, there must be means used to compell: This is a harsh and a sowr Principle, a disturbing Principle to Churches and States, to mankind. This Principle feldome prevails with any but thofe who have got power into their hands, or hope to get it. This muft needs be a dividing Principle.

First, because of the infinite variety of mens apprehenfions about what is good or evill, fcarce three men agree any long time in their apprehenfions of fome things to be evil; if then nothing that is conceived to be evill muft be fuffered, there muft needs be continuall oppofition between man and

man.

This fubje&s the generality of men to fuffer for many things which they can fee no evill in, but are perfwaded is good;this raises an animofity against those by whom they fuffer; though a man can fubje&t his body and eftate to another, he cannot fubje&t his reafon to another: In the common ways of juftice men are punished for those things, which if they be guilty of,they cannot but acknowledg themfelves to be worthy of punishment, as in Theft, Murder, Drunkenneffe, &. And for the fact, they are tryed in fuch a way, as they cannot but acknowledg is fit in reafon to be fubje&ted to; and therefore, though they fuffer much, yet they will yeeld to it without diftarbance.

But if this Principle prevails, every man almoft is made lyable to punishment for thousands of things that he can fee no reason why he should be punished: It is very hard to bring mens fpirits to yeeld in fuch things.

But

But you will fay, May not men be punished for things that they fee no reason why they should be punifbed? for many malefactors may eafily escape thus; guilt will quickely blind men, they will fee no reafon why they fhould be punished.

It is not what men fay they fee no reason for, or what it may be they indeed fee no reafon for; but what men cannot fee reafon for, though they should bend their understandings, and ftrength to the uttermoft; yea, what the generality of man-kind, and of that community of which a man is, cannot poffibly fee reafon for, it is impoffible for the generality of mankind, & the community of any Church or State, though they should be never fo diligent to find out what is good, and what is evill, yet to be able to understand every thing that is evill, to be fo..

If you will have laws made against all things, that such as are in authority conceive to be evill, then you must give them power to judge, not only by the rules of common juftice and equity, and punish for the breach of them, but by the apprehenfions that their own raised parts fhall fuggeft unto them, and to punish men for not being raised to that height of understanding themselves have ; but this power is more then is fit to be given to any men upon earth. This would bring tyranny both in State and Church.

For firft, from whence is the rife of all Civill Power that any man, or fociety of men, are invefted with? is it not from the generality of the men, over whom they have power? Is it not the power which they themselves had, and which they might have kept amongst themselves? For who can fay, that a Democracy is a finfull Government in it felfe? True, God eftablishes it upon particular men by his Ordinance, after it is given to them by the people, but the firft rife is from them; and if fo, then they fhould make no law to bring those men under punishment, who gave them their power, but fuch a Law as thefe men may poffibly come to underftand, to be equall and juft, for they act their power: and it must be suppofed, that they never intended to give a power beyond this. Those who give power, may limit power;they may give part to one, part to another; they may limit the matter about wea H

the

The civil Magiftrates not to punish e

very thing that is evill,

the power fhall be exercifed, it fhall goe fo far, and no further; the utmost limits cannot goe beyond thefe rules of Juftice which they are capable to underftand. Hence it is, that all men in our Law, are tryed Per pares, by their Peers, be cause it is to be fuppofed, that they are to be accounted offenders, and to be punished; only fo as those who are equall with themselves, fhall judg them worthy; and this likewife is the reason that Courts are in publique, no man is to be fhut out, because all men that will may behold the tryall, and jufifie the proceedings of Juftice again ft offenders: It muft needs be fuppofed then, that the rules by which the Judges go, must be the rules of common equity and juftice, that all men may underfland; beyond what these rules will reach to, the Ci vill State is not to punish, not every thing that men of deepe judgements and ftrong parts, may apprehend to be evill.

The power of the Church likewife extends not to the punishment of every thing, that either may by the Governours of it, be conceived to be evill, or that is indeed evill.

As the rife of the Civil power fhews, that only such things are to be punished by it, as are against the common rules of Juftice and Equity; fo the rife of Church power will fhew, that only fuch things as are against common rules, fuch things as fome way or other appeare to be against conviction, and are obftinately perfifted in, are by Church cenfure to be punished.

The rife of Church power is indeed different from the rife of the Civill, yet agrees in this, that it limits the Church, as the rife of the Civill doth the Civill power. The power of Governors in the State arifes from the people, and they act their power that the Commonwealth gives to them: But the Governours of the Church have not their power from the members of the Church, but from Chrift; neither do they act in the name of the Church, but in the name of Chrift. It is true, the Members of the Church do defign fuch men to fuch an Office; but being defigned, now they are invefted with the power of Jefus Chrift, they exercife his power, and do act in his name, not in the name of the Church.

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