1735-36. Mystery either in the Eftimate of the Navy, or in any other Anno 9. Geo. II. Eftimates laid before Parliament: The Articles are all well known, because it never exceeds what it was in the preceding Year, without fome manifeft Reafon; therefore any Gentleman may fufficiently fatisfy himself about every Article, by a bare Perufal at the Table; but if upon fuch Perufal any Doubt should arise, there are always, in the Committee of Supply, many Gentlemen able to give him as much Information as he can with Reason defire; fo that there never can be a Neceffity for our referring any Estimate to a Select Committee. The Eftimates, yearly laid before Parliament, have always contained the whole Charge neceffary for the Service of the enfuing Year, fo far as could be forefeen when thofe Eftimates were drawn up; but as it is impoffible to foresee all the Accidents that may happen in the Course of a Year, therefore the Government may fometimes be obliged to increase the publick Charge, beyond what was contained in the Eftimate laid before the preceding Seffion of Parliament : This is an Inconvenience proceeding from the Weakness of human Forefight, and cannot be removed by referring any Eftimate to a fele&t Committee of Parliament; for it is impoffible to fuppofe, that any Committee can foresee every Thing that may happen in the Courfe of a Year; nay, it is not to be prefumed that they can foresee Things as fully and clearly as thofe, who are immediately concerned in the Administration, under whofe Direction the Eftimates are generally drawn up. And if, by future Accidents, it fhould be found neceffary to increase the publick Charge beyond what was at first proposed, an Account of that additional Charge certainly ought to be, and I believe has always hitherto been laid before Parliament, as foon as any fuch Account could be regularly made up. This was the Cafe with refpect to the Navy-Debt, fo that its remaining fo long unfatisfied, could not be owing to the Estimates or Accounts not being referred to a felect Committee, but to the Inability the Nation was under of providing for it out of the Grants of any fucceeding Year. I fhall grant, Sir, that the Load of Debts this Nation labours under at prefent is very great, but we ought to bear it with the more Chearfulness, when we confider that the whole was contracted in Defence of our Religion and Liberties; and furely no Man will grudge contributing a small Part of his yearly Revenue, towards paying the Principal and Intereft, when he confiders, that if it had not been for that Debt, he would have no Property at all. But this Debt, great as it is, was all contracted in Pursuance of Eftimates yearly delivered into Parliament, no one of which was ever referred to Anno 9. Geo. 11. to a felect Committee; and yet it cannot be alledged, that 1735-36. the smallest Part of this Debt was unneceffarily contracted, or that the Publick was in the leaft defrauded by any of thofe Estimates. I fhall likewife grant that we ought to look narrowly into all Eftimates laid before us, but when thofe Estimates are plain, this may be done without fending them to a felect Committee; and let a private Gentleman's Eftate be never so much mortgaged, I fhall have no Opinion of his Prudence, if he fate half a Year poring over an Account, which a School-boy might fully examine in half an Hour. Mr Pulteney. 1 Sandys. As for new Offices, Officers, or Salaries, I have not heard of any lately erected, and if any of them should ever appear in the Eftimates delivered into this Houfe, it will then be Time enough to inquire particularly into them. As for the late Promotion of General Officers, I hope no Gentleman will find Fault with it; both because there was no additional Expence thereby brought upon the Nation, and because it was abfolutely neceffary to give our Officers that Rank, which their Services have intitled them to, in order that they may be upon an equal Footing with their Cotemporaries in the Service of thofe Foreign Powers with whom we are in Alliance; otherwife, in cafe we should find it neceflary to join our Forces with any foreign Power, an Officer in the British Service, by not being promoted foon enough to the Rank he deferved, might find himfelf under a Neceffity of fubmitting to be commanded by a foreign Officer of not near fo long ftanding in the Army; for every one knows, that in Detachments from confederate Armies, the Officers generally roll, firft according to their Ranks in the Army, and next according to the Dates of their Commiffions. To conclude, Sir, if there were any very new and extraordinary Articles in the Eftimate of the Navy now under Confideration, if Gentlemen could fhew any doubtful Articles in it, which could not be immediately fet in a clear Light, there might be fome Reafon for agreeing to the Motion now made to us; but as there is no Charge in it but what is ufual, I therefore cannot think there is any Occafion for our referring it to a felect Committee.' To this it was replied by the fame Members who were for the Motion as follows: Sir, The honourable Gentlemen are much in the Right not to Mr Walter Plumer. difpute whether there was ever fuch a Custom, as that mentioned by the honourable Gentleman who made you the Motion, because it would be immediately determined by referring to the Journals of the Houfe; it must therefore Barnard. ftand 1735-36. ftand admitted, that there was once fuch a Method of Pro- Anno g. Geo. 11. ceeding, but how it came to be laid afide is a Question of a very different Nature. I fhall agree, that a Cuftom once established is never laid afide without fome Reason; but that Reason is often very far from being a good one: In the prefent Cafe, it is to be prefumed, that this Cuftom of referring publick Accounts and Eftimates to felect Committees, was found to be very troublefome to Minifters; and this was the true Reafon for its being laid afide; but this was fo far from being a good Reafon for laying it afide, that it will always be a ftrong Reason for re-affuming that laudable Cuftom. We are told, Sir, that the reviving of this Cuftom will make People fufpect, that fome very great Frauds have been lately committed in the Management of the publick Treafure: Bat I am of Opinion, that the Nation will be much more alarmed, at least I am fure they'll have much greater Reafon to be alarmed, if they fee their Representatives in Parliament every Year receiving Eftimates for moft prodigious Sums of Money, and granting all the Sums defired by fuch Eftimares, without ever making the leaft Inquiry into any one of them; for in private Life it is moft natural to suppose that a Man will be cheated by his Servants, if he fhould always pafs fuch Accounts as they are pleafed to bring in, without ever examining into any one; and it is not to be fuppofed that the Servants of the Publick are honefter, or lets inclined to pilfer, than the Servants of private Men. The Duty we owe to his Majefty, ought never, Sir, to be brought into any Debate in this Houfe; but it was never more improperly brought in, than it is now by the Gentlemen on the other Side of the Queftion; for as this Houfe is the grand Inqueft of the Nation, we ought to inquire for the King as well as for the People: We are in fome Manner his Majefty's Trustees, and ought to take Care, that neither he nor his People be cheated by the Servants or Officers he employs; and therefore it is inconfiftent with that Duty we owe to his Majesty, to pafs any Accounts, or agree to any Eftimates prefented to us by his Officers or Servants, till we have ftrictly examined the Truth of every Article. The new Articles lately introduced into our Eftimates, may not perhaps be very confiderable, but the Charge upon thofe, and the additional Charge upon all the old Articles, amount yearly to a very confiderable Sum; and I confefs I never was fo clear-fighted as to fee at firft View, that all thefe additional Charges were abfolutely neceffary for the publick Service. The Gentlemen fay, that the feveral Articles in our Eftimates are all well known, and that the Charge upon each is likewife known, because it never exceeds what it was in the prefent Year, without fome manifest Reafon : Anno 9. Geo. II. 1735-36. Reafon: This, Sir, might be fome Satisfaction, if any come. 'I have, Sir, many Queftions to afk, which I think necessary for my Information, in relation to every Article of this Eftimate; but it would be ridiculous to expect the proper Information from any Gentlemen in this Houfe, were he never fo well acquainted with the Affairs of the Navy, becaufe every Article of the Eftimate refers to a long particular Account, which ought to be examined, before any other Gentleman can have that Satisfaction, which we ought to have as Trustees both for the King and the People. It is impoffible for Gentlemen to discover the Fraud of any Article in an Estimate, or to flate their Objections in any regular Method, without examining Perfons, Papers, and Records, which cannot be done but by referring the Estimate to a Select Committee, with proper Powers for that Purpose. If this be done, I fhall think it worth while to ask fuch Queftions as are neceffary for my Information; and I shall be glad to find the Sufpicions I at prefent entertain, are without any Foundation. What • What was contained in the Estimates of late, yearly laid before us, or whether they contained an Account of all the annual Charge that could be forefeen, I cannot deter mine; for there is fo little Satisfaction to be got from perufing Accounts at our Table, that I never gave myself the Trouble; but this I can fay, that if they contained an Account of all the Charge then neceffary, it is very extraordinary, that our Forefight fhould run above 100,000 1. in Debt yearly upon the Article of the Navy only. This I cannot believe, and therefore I am afraid that these Estimates were made deficient on purpose to conceal, for fome Time, from the Nation the Expence our Measures had made neceffary; because, as our Navy is a favourable Article, it was expected that the Parliament would readily agree, without any Inquiry, to make that Deficiency good, whenever it should be thought neceffary to make Application for that Purpose. I am likewife at a Lofs to determine whether there was, every Year, laid before Parliament an Account of the Deficiency of the Grants for the former Year with refpect to our Navy : But if fuch an Account was regularly laid every Year before Parliament, it is with me a very ftrong Argument for referring every Account and every Eftimate to Select Committees; for the Difadvantages attending our running into a long Arrear are so evident, that I am fure this Houfe would not have allowed that Arrear to remain fo long unfatisfied, if proper Notice had been taken of the Account of those Arrears, which, 'tis faid, were yearly laid upon our Table. This fhews that moft of the Gentlemen of this House expect no Satisfaction from a Perufal of any Account at our Table, and therefore never give themselves the Trouble to look over them, which proves the Neceffity of referring all fach Accounts to be examined by Select Committees. I am convinced, that if the ancient Method of inquiring into all Accounts and Eftimates, by Select Committees, had been conftantly obferved, the Debt the Nation now labours under, would never have rifen to fo large a Sum, nor would fo fmall a Part of it been paid off in above twenty Years profound Peace. The great Hafte made in contracting it, and the flow Steps in paying it off, is another Argument for our beginning to look a little more narrowly into our Affairs, which can be done only by reviving that ancient Method of Proceeding, which the honourable Gentleman has now moved for, with refpect to the Eftimates of the Navy for this Year. • What the honourable Gentlemen may mean by Myfteries in Accounts, I do not know; but to me every Article in the Eftimate now before us feems a Mystery, and must continue a Mystery to every Gentleman, who has never feen VOL. IV. R the |