1735836. Anno 9 Geo. II. the particular Account to which each Article refers. Can any Gentleman understand the very firft Article, which is upwards of 28,000l. per Annum, without having looked into the particular Account of what is paid for Salaries and other Charges to the Lords of the Admiralty, the Commiffioners of the Navy, the Secretaries, Officers, Clerks, and Contingencies relating thereto? Or can any Gentleman fay, that this whole Sum is abfolutely neceflary, without having examined whether fuch Commiffioners, Secretaries, Officers, and Clerks, are all neceffary for fupporting the Bufinefs of that Office, and that fuch Salaries are neceflary for fupporting fuch Officers? Let us look into every other Article of the Eftimate, and we shall find the fame Mystery. Therefore, instead of our not being able to fhew any Árticle that is myfterious, I muft defire the Gentlemen of the other Side. of the Question to fhew me any one Article that is not myfterious; efpecially, confidering that no Inquiry has been made into either of the Articles, I believe I may fay, within the Memory of any Gentleman now in this House. Debate on a Motion, to addrefs the Reduction of the Forces.. I hope, Sir, a Negative will not be put upon this Queftion; for it will certainly give too juft an Alarm to the People of this Nation; they will imagine, that there must be Errors, and even Frauds, in the Estimates and Accounts delivered into Parliament, when the very Gentlemen who deliver them, or at leaft those who are principally concerned in the making them up, prevent any Inquiry into the Juftice of them: Therefore, if Gentlemen are refolved to difagree with the Motion, I hope for their own Sakes, and for the Honour of Parliament, they will put the previous Question, instead of putting a Negative upon the Question now before us.' The Question being then put upon the Motion, it was carried in the Negative by 256 to 155. Jan. 29. A Motion was made, That an humble Address King for a farther be prefented to his Majefty, to acquaint him with the Readinefs, wherewith his faithful Commons had agreed to the Continuance of the extraordinary Expence, which he had thought neceffary in the prefent Juncture; in which Refolution they had concurred with the greater Chearfulness, as a grateful Return to his Royal Goodness, in ordering fo confiderable a Reduction of his Forces both by Sea and Land, as foon as the present Posture of Affairs would permit; and in full Confidence, that it was his Royal Intention, as foon as there fhould be a more perfect Reconciliation among the feveral In the ordinary Estimate of the Navy, for the Year 1736, 28,06: L 14 s. 1 d. is charged for Commifoners of the Navy, with the Secretaries, Officers, Clerks, Inftruments, and Contingencies relating thereto. 1735-36. feveral Powers of Europe, to make fuch farther Reduction Anno 9. Geo. H. of his Forces, as might be confiftent with the Security and Dignity of his Majefty's Royal Perfon and Government, and with our present happy Conftitution; not doubting, but that, from his Fatherly Compaflion to his People, he would be graciously pleased to direct, that whatever Land-Force fhould thereafter be thought neceffary, fhould be established in fuch a Manner, as should make the Saving more fenfible, and the future Burthen lefs grievous to the Nation. Mr Mr John Pitt. Lord Polwarth. Mr Sandys. This Motion was fupported by Mr John Pitt, Lord Polwarth, Mr Pulteney, Mr Gybbon, Sir John Barnard, Sandys, and Mr Walter Plumer; and was oppos'd by Mr Winnington, Col. Bladen, Sir William Yonge, and Conduit. But the Question being at laft put, in was carried Mr Winnington. in the Negative without a Divifion. Mr February 2. The Houfe having ordered, that the proper Officer should lay before them an Account of all the publick Debts, at the Receipt of his Majesty's Exchequer, due or ftanding out at Christmas, 1735, with the annual Interest paid for the fame; Mr Sandys ftood up, and spoke as follows. Sir, ⚫ Every Man is now, I believe, convinced that the great Debt we groan under, is a moft heavy Clog upon all publick Measures, and will certainly, while it continues, prevent its being in our Power to act upon any Occafion with that Vigour we ought, either in Vindication of the Honour and Intereft of this Nation, or in Defence of our Allies. This of itself is a moft terrible Misfortune, but what still adds to it is, that these our unlucky Circumftances are well known to all our Neighbours, which is, I believe, the principal Cause of our having fo little Influence on the Councils of other Nations; and while this Load continues we may expect to be infulted by them, as often as they can find the leaft Pretence for fo doing. In fuch Circumftances therefore it is the moft pernicious Thing we can do, to run the Nation any farther in Debt by creating new Funds, or to prevent that Fund, which was long fince appropriated, from being religioufly applied to the extinguifhing yearly a Part of that Debt contracted before the Year 1716; for if we do fo in Time of Peace, it will convince our Neighbours, that it would be impoffible for us to fupport an expenfive War, which will of course render us contemptible in the Eyes of all foreign Nations. And with refpect to our Domestick Affairs, the Confequences of pursuing any foch Measure are full as pernicious; for every new Mortgage we make, becomes a fort of Prop for fupporting the Intereft payable upon the former; whereas we ought to R 2 ufe Col. Bladen. Sir W. Yonge. Mr Sandys's Mowithin the Year, the Supplies necurrent Service. tion for raising, ceffary for the Anno 9. Geo. II. ufe all poffible Means to reduce that Intereft, not only for 1735-36 the Encouragement of Trade among us, but to encrease the Sinking Fund, which would enable us to pay off all our old Debts much fooner, than it will otherwise be poffible for us to do: Nay, I am almoft certain, that if no new Debts had been contracted fince the Year 1716, nor any Part of the Sinking Fund converted to other Ufes than it was originally defigned for, the Interest upon all our Funds would have been long fince reduced to 31, per Cent. and a much greater Part of our old Debt would have been paid, by which we fhould have been enabled to have taken off fome of thofe heavy Taxes, under which the poor Labourers and Manufacturers have groaned for fo many Years. The loading Pofterity with new Debts, in order to give a little Eafe to the prefent Generation, may be a good temporary Expedient for a Minifter; and may prevent the People's making too particular an Inquiry into that Expence, which his Meafures have brought upon them: But it is a most pernicious Expedient both for the Royal Family, and for the Nation in general. For when any Sum of Money is raised for the Service of the enfuing Year, by contracting a new Debt, and creating a new Fund for the Payment of that Debt, it is fubjecting the Nation to pay at leaft double that Sum in the End; because in every fuch Cafe, the Nation is obliged to pay Intereft for the Money raised, and the Expences of collecting for many Years, befides paying the Principal at laft; this fhews the Lofs the Nation fuftains by the contracting of any fuch Debt for the current Service. By a long Continuation of fuch Measures the People may come to be fo loaded with Taxes, and those Taxes fo much engaged for the Payment of former Mortgages, that it may be impoffible for his Majefty, or fome of his Succeffors, to vindicate the Rights of the Nation, without loading them with heavier Taxes than they are able to bear, which may very probably raife a general Difaffection against our prefent happy Establishment; and may be of the most dangerous Confequence even to the Creditors themfelves; for if ever we should be reduced to fuch Circumftances, that either the Nation must be ruined, or the publick Creditors left unpaid, it is easy to fee which Side of the Dilemma would be chofen. The proper Method to prevent our running into Debt is to diminish our yearly Expence; but as the Number of our Forces for the Service of the enfuing Year has already been agreed to; I cannot now propofe any Diminution of our Expence for this Year. We have already granted a great Part of the Supplies neceffary for the Service, and we are to go this Day into a Committee of Ways and Means for raifing thofe Supplies. What Methods may then be pro pofed 1735-36.. pofed for that Purpose I do not know; but as I am of O- Anno 9. Gen. II. pinion, that no Confideration ought to prevail with us to contract any new Debt, or to prevent that Fund which ftands appropriated for the Payment of the old, I fhall take the Liberty to make a Motion which I hope the House will agree to. For if our ufual Funds cannot answer the Service we have already agreed to, I think it will be better to lay fome new Taxes upon the Luxuries of Life, than to create new Funds; otherwife we run the Hazard of reducing our Pofterity to the Want even of the Neceffaries of Life, that we ourselves may live in Afluence; for this Reason, before we go into the Committee of Ways and Means, I fhall take the Liberty to move to refolve, That this Houfe will raise within the Year the Supplies neceffary for the current Service. Mr Sandys being feconded by Sir John Barnard and Mr Willimot, the fame was oppofed by Sir William Yonge, Mr Winnington, Mr Heathcote, and Sir Robert Walpole as follows: *Sir, "If the Queftion, now before us, depended folely upon the Influence this Nation has at present in the Councils of all the Powers of Europe, or upon the Regard our Neighbours have fhewn to this Nation in all their Measures, a few Words would be fufficient to fhew, that we ought not to come to any fuch Resolution as has been proposed; for it is certain that we never had a greater Influence than we have at present in every Court of Europe, and that Influence is founded upon the ftrongeft Reason; because our Neighbours all know very well, that we have now two Funds fufficient for fupporting any War we may be engaged in, and which we can upon any fuch Occafion make ufe of, without overloading the Subject, or raifing Difcontent in the Nation; and thefe Funds are the Land-Tax and the Sinking-Fund. Tho' our landed Gentlemen would think it hard to pay 4 s. in the Pound Land-Tax, during a Time of Peace, yet they would not certainly grudge that Tax, if they faw the Nation neceffarily involved in a War; and tho' the SinkingFund is to be applied in the most religious Manner to the Payment of our old Debts, yet, in Cafe of a War, I believe no Gentleman will fay, but that it would be proper to fufpend fuch Payments (especially as none of the publick Creditors are defirous of having their Money) and to apply that Fund towards fupporting the War; fo that our Neighbours know extremely well that we have a Revenue of above two Millions, befides our ufual Supplies, which we may raife towards fupporting a War without laying any new Tax upon our People." • I fhall Debate thereon. Sir John Barnard. Sir W. Yonge. Mr Heathcote. Anno 9 Geo. 11. 1735-36. 'I fhall admit, Sir, that the Sinking Fund would be a Gainer, by the Reduction of the Intereft payable upon the old Funds, and that it would be an Advantage to the Nation to have the Sinking Fund increased; but I very much queftion if it would be poffible to reduce the Intereft payable upon our old Funds lower than it is at prefent, even tho' we fhould never hereafter contract one Shilling new Debt. I have indeed heard of a great many Projects for that Purpofe ; and fome of them have appeared well in Theory, but when they came to be examined, it has always been found that they would not do in Practice, and therefore they have been laid afide: Befides, Sir, it would be an Experiment of the most dangerous Confequence, to reduce the Intereft payable upon our old Funds lower than it is at prefent, because it would probably induce Foreigners to draw their Money all at once out of our Funds, which would of course bring our publick Credit into great Distress, and would drain us of all the ready Specie now circulating in the Nation; and if the publick Credit of the Nation fhould be once brought into any great Distress, most of our own People would take the Alarm, which would run it fo low, that the Reftoring of it would be impracticable. Another Confideration, Sir, of great Weight with me, is, That we cannot well reduce the Intereft upon our publick Funds any lower than it is at prefent, without reducing at the fame Time the Intereft of Money in general; and I am perfuaded the reducing the Intereft of Money in general, to a lower Rate than what it is at prefent, would bring great Difficulties upon all Ranks of Men in the Kingdom. With refpect to the publick Creditors the Difficulties are apparent; for a third Part of their yearly Income has been taken from them by the Reduction already made; and if a farther Reduction of one per Cent. fhould be made, they would then have but one half of that Revenue, which they fuppofed they were to have when they firft lent their Money to the Publick. Then with respect to the Landed Gentlemen, the reducing Intereft fo low would be a great Hardfhip, for they would be obliged to give each of their younger Children at leaft 5 or 6000l. whereas when Intereft is at 5 or 6 per Cent. one half of that Sum will enable them to live in a genteel Manner; fo that the reducing of Intereft fo low would lay all our Landed Gentlemen under a Neceffity of raining their Eftates, or at leaft of mortgaging them very deeply, to provide for their younger Children. And lastly, Sir, with respect to the Trading Part of the Nation, it i very well known, that every Branch of Trade in the Kingdom is already fo overstocked, that it is almoft impoffible for |