1735-36. for one half of our Tradefmen to live by their Bufinefs; Anno 9. Geo. 11. and a farther Reduction of Intereft would drive so many into Trade, that no Man could live by any Trade he could engage in. Even our Borrowers of Money, Sir, or Gentlemen who owe any Money at Intereft, would be reduced to great Difficulties; for the Profit to be got by lending Money, or by leaving Money in any Man's Hand at Intereft, would be fo fmall, that no Man would think of employing it in that Way; this would of courfe bring a general Demand upon all thofe in the Kingdom who owe any Money at Interest, and at the fame Time would render it impoffible for them to find any Money for answering that Demand. From all which I think it inconfiftent with the publick Good of the Nation, and with that of every particular Man, to reduce the Interest payable upon our publick Funds lower than it is at prefent. Whatever may be the Confequence with respect to Ministers, I am very certain, Sir, it would be an Expedient of very bad Confequence with refpect to his prefent Majefty, to load his People with Taxes which they may think unneceffary; for the People will always pay voluntarily and freely fuch Taxes as they think are abfolutely neceffary for the Support of the Nation, but it will always raife Difaffection to the King upon the Throne, to load the People with Taxes which they think unneceffary at the Time they are laid on. It is for this Reason that in Time of War, a Government may venture to fubject the People to Taxes, which would raise terrible Complaints, if they fhould be raised in Time of Peace; and for the fame Reafon I am of Opinion, that we ought rather to convert a Part of the Sinking Fund to the current Service of the Year, than to increase any of our old Taxes, or load the People with any new; for as there is at prefent no Demand for paying off any of our old Debts, and as none of the publick Creditors defire to have their Money, I am convinced the Generality of the People would think it unneceffary to load them with any new Tax, when they know we have fuch a Fund, to which we may have Recourfe for making good the current Service of the Year; and therefore we may prefame, that the loading of them at prefent with any new Tax would raise a general Difaffection to his prefent Majefty's Perfon and Government, and confequently be a moft pernicious Expedient. It has been faid, that by contracting a new Debt, and creating a new Fund for the current Service of the Year, the Nation comes at last to be loaded with double the Sum fa raifed, by Means of the Intereft and Expences of Management, which they are obliged to pay yearly till the Principal be paid off: But I cannot admit of the Juftnefs of this Calcu 1735-36. Anno 9. Geo. II. Calculation; for, with respect to the Expences of Manage ment, it is well known that no new Debt we have lately contracted, has occafioned any great new Expence; because the Fund for paying off that Debt has always been committed to the Offices already erected, fo that it has occafioned no additional Expence, but that of adding perhaps two or three Under Clerks, to fome of the Offices before established: And as to the Interest paid yearly by the Nation, does not every private Man fave that Intereft yearly, or make as much by the Share which he must have contributed to that principal Sum, in cafe it had been raised within the Year? If every Man in the Nation fhould be obliged this Year to contribute 10 s. towards the current Service of the Year, does not he lofe the Intereft of that 10 s. for all Years to come? And if by borrowing a Sum of Money upon the publick Credit at 3 or 4 per Cent. that 10 s. fhould be left in every private Man's Pocket, may he not make every Year 5 per Cent. of that Money fo left in his Pocket ?. From hence it must be granted, that the contracting of a new Debt at a low Intereft, instead of raising the Money within the Year, is an Advantage rather than a Lofs to the Nation in general. As the Forces neceffary for the Service of the enfuing Year both by Sea and Land, have been already agreed to, they must be provided for fome Way or other; and if the ufual Taxes fhall be found infufficient for that Purpose, every one knows we have but three Ways to make good that Deficiency. We muit make it good either by increafing fome old Taxes, or by laying on new Taxes, or by taking fo much from the Sinking Fund as will make good that Deficiency. As for the firft Method, none of our old Taxes will admit of any Increafe, except the Land-Tax; and, confidering the heavy Load that has for many Years lain upon the Landed Gentlemen of this Kingdom, I am really furprized, that they have fo long allowed themselves to be fo loaded by the Trading Intereft; therefore for the fake of Prudence, as well as Justice, we ought not to think of increafing the Land-Tax; and I hope, in all our future Meafures, we fhall impofe fuch Taxes as may fall with an equal Weight upon all the Subjects, in Proportion to their yearly Revenues or Profits, whether those yearly Revenues and Profits proceed from Land, Trade or Money. With refpect to the fecond Method, I wish with all my Heart feveral of the Luxuries which have been lately introduced, or very much increased, were taxed more heavily than they are at present: But I am of Opinion, that it is a dangerous Experiment to lay on any new Tax, in a Time of profound Peace, even upon the Luxuries of Life; efpecially as it is generally known, 1735-36. known, that we have another Fund to which we may have Anno 9. Geo. II. Recourse, without injuring in the leaft the publick Credit of the Nation, or laying any additional Load upon any Rank of People: And if we should venture upon any fuch Meafure, it would not be proper to make use of any fuch Tax for the current Service of the Year, because it is impoffible to guess how much the Produce of a new Tax will amount to, and I cannot think it would be right to appropriate an uncertain Produce for the Payment of a certain Sum. It is well known, that a great Part of the Debts we are now loaded with, and of which fome Gentlemen take all Occafions to complain in the moft grievous Manner, were occafioned by that very Method of laying on a new Tax, the Produce of which muft always be uncertain, and appropriating that uncertain Produce towards the Payment of a certain Sum; therefore if Gentlemen have a Mind to lay any new Taxes upon the Luxuries of Life, I fhall not be against it; but I hope they will order the whole Produce to remain in the Exchequer, in order to attend the future Difpofition of Parliament; for before next Seffion the Amount of fuch new Tax will be known, or may be nearly gueffed at, and then it may fafely be appropriated to the current Service of the then enfuing Year; or be made a Fund for anfwering the current Service of that Year. Whether the usual Taxes will be fufficient to answer the Services already voted, and the other Services that may be thought neceffary for the enfuing Year, I fhall not pretend to determine; but if they are not, I think it is plain that we must have Recourfe to the Sinking Fund, as the most proper Method of providing for any Deficiency: However, we are not at prefent to determine this Question abfolutely; when Gentlemen begin to confider of Ways and Means for raifing the Sums neceffary for the Service of the enfuing Year, they ought, and they certainly will agree to raise them in that Manner, which fhall appear to be the leaft burthenfome to the People; and therefore I think it would be very wrong in us, to restrain ourselves in the Manner proposed by the Motion now before us. But that we may be left altogether free to do in this Refpect what we may think proper when we go into the Committee of Ways and Means, I fhall propofe, that the previous Question may be put, with regard to the Queftion now before us.' To this it was replied by the fame Members, who were Mr Sandys. for the Motion, as follows: Sir, • It has been often obferved, That new Measures must always be fupported by new Doctrines, and it may as justly be obferved, that wrong Measures must be fupported by wrong VOL. IV. Doctrines. S Sir John Barnard.. 1735-36. Anno 9. Geo. II. Doctrines. This is the Cafe with refpect to the Queftion now before us. The Doctrines advanced in favour of that Measure against which the prefent Queftion is intended, are all fo deceitful, that they are a plain Proof that the Measure must be wrong. What Influence our Minifters may think they have in the Councils of Foreign Powers, I fhall not determine; but I am fure it does not appear that we have any great Influence, either from the Advantages that have been lately obtained in Favour of this Nation, or from the late Behaviour of fome of our Neighbours towards our Allies. I hope it will not be faid, that the Courts of Vienna and Madrid had any great Regard for us, when they concluded that Treaty of Vienna which produced the Treaty of Hanover, and made fuch a Buftle in Europe; and I am fure it cannot be faid, that the Courts of Paris, Madrid, and Turin, fhewed any great Regard for us, when they made that private Alliance, by which they parcelled out among them, our Ally the Emperor's Dominions in Italy; nor can it, I think, be faid, that the Emperor placed any great Confidence in our Affiftance, when, in order to obtain a Peace, he agreed to yield up to France the whole Dutchy of Lorrain. I have not the Honour, Sir, to be in the Secret of Affairs, therefore I muft judge from publick Appearances; and from them it is to me evident, that our Influence has of late greatly decayed, and will, I am afraid, decay more and more: Foreigners, Sir, know our Circumstances better than we feem to do ourfelves: They know that now, after a Term of twenty Years Peace, our publick Debts are very near as great, and our Circumftances as bad as they were at the End of the laft War: They know that by a Land-Tax of 2 s. in the Pound, we cannot provide for the yearly Supplies we think neceffary, even in Time of Peace, without running ourselves into fome new Debt, to the Amount of 5 or 600,000l. yearly, or taking fo much from the Sinking Fund; and they know that, as the Sinking Fund we now have arifes wholly from our Confumptions being much greater in Time of Peace than in Time of War, the great eft Part of it would be annihilated in cafe we should engage in a War; from which, every Foreigner muft conclude, and I fhould think every Englishman too, that with 4 s. in the Pound Land-Tax, we could not raife 500,000l. a Year more than has been found neceffary for fupporting our Government in Time of Peace; and that therefore we could not fupport a War without loading the People with many new Taxes, or greatly increafing those we now have; neither of which, I am afraid, our People would patiently fubmit to. · Now, 1735-36 Now, Sir, give me Leave to confider the extraordinary Anno9. Geo, II. Doctrines advanced, for the Support of that Measure which the oppofing of this Queftion feems to point at: In the first Place we are told, it would not be poffible for us to reduce the Interest payable upon our old Debts, even tho' we should never contract any new Debt: This, Sir, is contrary to one of the most established Maxims, which is, That the natural Intereft of Money muft always depend upon the Proportion there is in any particular Country between the Demand for borrowing Money at Intereft, and the Demand for lending Money at Intereft; for as we have a Sinking Fund capable of paying off a very large Sum yearly, if we never perverted any Part of that Fund, which is always the fame with contracting a new Debt, we should be every Year diminishing the Demand for borrowing, and increafing the Demand for lending; fo that the natural Interest of Money, would neceffarily of itself decrease, without any Projects for that Purpose. This, I fay, Sir, would of courfe happen in a few Years; but even at present, if no new Debts were to be contracted, I do not know but Methods might be found for reducing Immediately the Intereft of all our Funds to 3 and a half, perhaps to 3 per Cent. what these Methods may be, I fhall not take upon me to mention, becaufe fome Gentlemen seem refolved that no Propofition fhall be received, except those offered by themfelves. And to frighten us from any fuch Projects, we are told, that the Foreigners would, in fuch a Cafe, draw their Money out all at once, and drain us of all the current Specie in the Kingdom; but to those who understand the Circumftances of Europe, and are apprised of the Lowness of Intereft in fome Countries, and the Precariousness of the Security in others, this must appear to be a meer Bugbear. Befides, Sir, the Thing would either be in itfelf impoffible, or it is an Event we have no Occafion to be afraid of; for if Foreigners fhould all at once refolve to fell out, it would either run the Price of all our Funds a great deal below Par, or it would not; if it did, they would be obliged to fufpend their Resolution, and take 3 per Cent. rather than fell out a 100l. Stock for 80 or 90 1. in ready Money; and if their felling out did not run the Price of our Stocks below Par, we can have no Occafion to be afraid of any fuch Refolution; because their felling out could not ruin our pubhack Credit, and the ready Specie they could carry out would foon be replaced by the general Balance of our Trade, if we had no Intereft to pay yearly to them; for it has been for many Years, and while it continues, it must always be a terrible Drawback upon our general Balance of Trade, to S2 have |