1736.

After which the Motion was unanimously agreed to, and Anno 9. Geo. 11. a Committee was appointed to draw up an Address accordingly.

April 30. A Motion being made for engroffing the Quakers Bill, the fame was ftrenuously oppofed; but the Queftion being put, it was carried in the Affirmative by 160 to 60.

The Quakers Bill ordered to be en

groffed.

May 3. A Petition of the Clergy of Surrey was prefented Farther Debate on to the House, fetting forth, That fince they had been heard the Quakers Bill. by their Counsel, in relation to the Quakers Bill, they had been informed of several new Clauses that had been inferted in the faid Bill, which they conceived to be prejudicial to the Rights of themselves and the other Parochial Clergy; and therefore praying to be heard by their Counsel, in relation to the faid new Claufes, before they received the final Affent of that House.

Mr Talbot.

Sir Will. Carew.

This Petition was ordered to lie upon the Table, and then the Bill was read the third Time, when several new Amendments were made to it; and a Motion being made, That the Bill do país, the fame was oppofed by Mr Talbot [of Wilts] Mr Maister [of Cirencefter] Sir William Carew, Mr Maifter. and others, who urg'd, That befides the many material Reasons which had been given against paffing the Bill, there was one relating to Form, which was unanswerable; for the Bill, which was first brought in, had been so thoroughly and fo entirely alter'd in the Committee, that it could not now be looked on as the fame Bill; even the very Title of it had been entirely altered in the Committee, and that Bill which was before called, A Bill to enlarge, amend, and render more effectual the Laws then in being, &c. was upon the third Reading to be called, A Bill for the more eafy Recovery of Tythes, Church Rates, and other Ecclefiaftical Dues from the People called Quakers; which they could not but take to be a very improper Title, for in their Opinion it ought to be called, A Bill for preventing the Recovery of Tythes, or any Ecclefiaftical Dues, from the People called Quakers. That by the Bill as it was at first brought in, the Jurifdiction of the Juftices of Peace was to have been confined to Tythes of a certain Value, which was certainly defigned to be Tythes of a fmall Value; the Juftices were to order and direct the Payment, fo as the Sum ordered did not exceed * * * , but the Committee, by the Bill they had drawn up, which was then read to them, had given the Juftices an unlimited Jurifdiction where the Title was not in Queftion. That this was a Power which they thought no Committee upon a Bill could take ; they might perhaps have filled up the Blank with any Sum they pleased; they might have filled it up with fuch a large Sum as would have in Effect been the fame with granting the VOL. IV. *F f

Juftices

1736.

Anno 9. Geo. II. Juftices an unlimited Jurifdiction: But they could not grant a general and unlimited Jurifdiction by a Bill which, when it came before them, was a Bill for granting a particular and confined Jurifdiction; and if the granting of fuch a Jurifdi&tion was then thought neceffary, the only Method they could take, according to the established Forms of that House, was to order the Bill then before them to be withdrawn, and a new Bill to be brought in ; in which Cafe, those who thought they might be aggrieved by any Thing in the new Bill, would have an Opportunity of being heard against it, which no Man could ever have, if the Method obferved in paffing the, Bill then before them fhould become an ufual Practice; for no Man could know whether he was to be injured by a Bill or not, 'till after it had paffed thro' the Committee, and then it would be too late for him to apply.'

Mr Glanville.
Mr Archer.

Mr Hampden.

Sir John St Aubin.

To this it was answered by Mr Glanville, Mr Archer, and Mr Hampden, That the Bill then before them was in Effect the very fame with the Bill first brought in; many of the Claufes had, indeed, been altered and amended, but the general Scope and Intention of the Bill was the very fame; and they did not think the Committee had taken any Liberties with the Bill but what were ufual, and fuch as they were fully intitled to take; for the Reafon of their granting an unlimited Power to Juftices of Peace with respect to the Value of the Tythe, was becaufe, upon mature Confideration, they found, that all Actions and Suits for Tythes, where the Title was not controverted, were for fmall Sums, for Sums much smaller than any Sum that was ever intended to be filled up in that Blank; and fince it was acknowledged, that the Committee might have filled up the Blank with fuch a large Sum, as would have in effect been the fame with granting the Juftices an unlimited Jurifdiction, they could fee no Reafon why the Committee might not do directly and in exprefs Terms, that which they might certainly have done in a hidden or indirect Manner.'

Hereupon Sir John St Aubin stood up, and spoke as follows:

Mr Speaker,

I think that a Bill of this Confequence, which affects fo large a Property, fhould undergo the wifeft Scrutiny of thofe regular Forms, which have hitherto circumfcribed our Proceedings, and guarded our Conftitution from any fudden and difguis'd Attacks: But this Bill, faulty as it was at firft, after two Readings in the House and Counsel had been folemnly heard againft it, went avowedly into the Committee to be almost intirely alter'd: A new Bill, for fo I may juftly call this, arifes ont of the Ashes of the old One, with the fame fallacious Title indeed, and lefs formidable than before: However,

1736.

However, it is ftill fufpected that there are latent Mifchiefs Anno 9. Geo. 11. in it, and against thofe, the Parties who are aggrieved, are deprived of an Opportunity of a fresh Defence. I hope therefore, that the learned Gentleman, who could not have been fo defective in his firft Enterprize, if new Inconveniencies were not perpetually to be encountered in the Alteration of fettled Conflitutions, will at leaft be fo candid as to withdraw his Scheme for the prefent, take Time to confider afresh, and not hurry a Bill, thus defective in Form and but -half understood, in the Conclufion of a Seffion, when many Gentlemen, quite worn out with a close and tedious Attendance, have been forced to retreat. This cannot long retard the great Work of Reformation which is at Hand: The Delay will be but a few Months only: The fame favourable Tide will continue, and whatever new Schemes, therefore, the learned Gentleman may have ready to produce, I hope he will indulge us in fo fhort a Refpite. But left this Bill fhould pafs, I hope you will permit me to enter my publick Proteft against it, for I am one of those who think it fundamentally wrong.

There is no one more ready than I am, to give all rea, fonable Indulgencies to the feveral unhappy Sectaries among us; I think, that in Points of Religious Worship, Compulfion ought never to be used, but Truth is to have the fair Opportunity of Working by its own Force upon the natural Ingenuity of the Mind, and the Supreme Lawgiver has the only Right to interpofe in fuch Matters. But human Authority has certainly a fecondary Power to reftrain those wild Exceffes, which under the falfe Colour of Religion would invade the Order and Difcipline of Civil Society. In this we are all united, and there is one Medium, one common Refort of our Laws, for the Protection of our refpective Rights and Privileges. I am very forry therefore, that any of the Diffenters fhould now fee Occafion to complain of their distinct Allowances, and that stated Measure which must be preserved in our civil Union. Let them look upon the Structure of our Conftitution in general; are the feveral Members well proportioned? Have they a mutual Dependence and regular Connection with each other? And is there one Law of Convenience which runs through the Whole? If this be fo, and the Preheminence is only maintained by a due Subordination of the inferior Parts; if the Building was erected by the most able Hands, and when Architecture was at its Height; I am not for inverting the Order of it, in Compliance with the Gothick Fancy of any Pretenders to that Art.

Thus our Conftitation at prefent ftands, and the Laws of Toleration are in this Senfe become a Part of it; they

1736.

Anno 9. Geo. 11. protect, as they certainly ought, the Established Religion of our Country, and, at the fame Time, allow a feparate Right in Religious Worship: Such, only, have not the Advantage of them, who deny the exterior Forms of our Government, whofe Confciences are a civil Nufance, and therefore forfeit the Condition of this Right. What then is it that the Quakers want? Have not all their most intemperate Defires been from Time to Time complyed with? Are they not exempted even from appealing to the great Author of Truth in their legal Teftimony? But not contented with all this, by a moft ftrange Abuse of the permiffive Liberty they enjoy, they fend circular Exhortations to their Brethren to oppose the civil Jurifdiction of our Laws; and having thus cherished and strengthened an Obftinacy, they approach the Legiflature itself with harth Revilings, unfupported by Evi dence, against the Clergy of our Established Church; denying a conftitutional Right; begging that the legal Remedies may be abated by which it is to be acquired; and unjustly complaining of Severities, which, by their repeated Contumacy, they wilfully draw on themselves; for the Law in its ordinary and natural Course will proceed to an Enforcement of its own Decree. Is this that Paffive Obedience and Non-Refistance, that mild and charitable Difpofition, with which they have been fo largely complimented? Is this Confcience, in any true Definition of it? No! it is perverse Humour, a falfe and delusive Light, an Ignis Fatuus, which arifes from a Degeneracy and Corruption of the Mind. If this is Confcience, then all thofe Riots and Tumults, which at any Time oppose the Execution of the Law, and the Authority of the Government, may with equal Juftice lay Claim to fuch a Confcience. Tythes are a distinct Property from the Inheritance of the Land, and by the Laws of our Conftitution are applied to certain Purposes. They are due of Civil Right, and no matter to whom they belong, tho' I fhould think that the Maintenance of our Clergy deferves fome favourable Share in our Confiderations.

No human Wisdom can at once foresee the fufficient Extent of legal Remedies, but they must from Time to Time be proportion'd to the Degrees of Obftinacy with which they are to contend. At the Time of the Revolution, when our Conftitution was resettled, and our feveral Rights and Privileges confirmed, the former Remedies were found infufficient, and, therefore, by the 7th and 8th of King Willim, a new one was created, but the others were fuffered to fubfift. The Clergy have now their Option which Method to purfue, and I believe they always follow this, unlefs they fufpect an unjuft Partiality. For they want only their Right, and are undoubtedly willing to come at it the

cheapest

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cheapest and most effectual Way; fo that by this Bill, which Anno 9. Geo. II. obliges them to repair to the Juftices in the first Inftance, you enjoyn them nothing but what is already done; but at the fame Time give a new Intereft to the Quaker in being contumacious: For I apprehend by the Bill, as it now ftands, if the Quakers fhould not appear, but fuffer Judgment to pafs by Default, or fhould appear and not litigate or gainfay, that there is a Power given to the Juftices to settle the Quantum of the Tythes, and the Clergy are hereby deprived of any farther Redrefs. It is the Liberty of avoiding the Juftices, which is fome fort of Controul upon their Judicature; and it is the Force of the several fubfifting Remedies, which obliges many of the Quakers in fome Shape or other at present to submit. For it is not the Punctilio of one Gun only (as the learned Counsel faid) which the Garrison wants; and when Men are obliged to furrender there is no Dishonour in doing it: But they have got unjuft Poffeffion, and would have you withdraw your Forces, that they may strengthen the Fortification, and make it capable of a ftouter Refiftance. Sir, I think the Comparison has been inverted; that Party is in Poffeffion who have a juft Title, and they only defire to keep what they have, without extending their Territories; and it would be extremely unjuft to pull down their Fences, upon an idle Report that the Enemy would take no Advantage of it.

'As to the Ecclefiaftical Courts, the Quakers have been defy'd to produce any Inftances of their being much troubled here; and indeed they are exceedingly few: Every Thing in the Course of Time will degenerate from its original Inftitution, and undoubtedly there are many Abufes crept into thefe Courts, which may deserve our Attention; but then let us proceed upon fairer Inquiries, and with a Difpofition to reform and not to deftroy. These Courts, from the earlieft Days of our Conftitution, have had Cognizance of Tythes; and if the chief Argument against them is drawn from their Defect of Power in giving Redrefs, I am rather for fupplying the Defect, than that their Authority herein should be wholly refcinded.

'I would not be thought, by any thing I have faid, to be for extending the Power of the Clergy; I am for keeping that as well as all other Power, within its due Bounds. But, furely, the Clergy are not to be the only Men in the World, who, when they are affaulted, have not a Liberty to complain, and to fly to this Afylum for their neceffary Defence; I think this is all they now do, and it is very unfair to be feeking induftrioufly for particular Inftances of Blame; and from thence to take Occafion of cafting an Odium upon the whole Function. Thofe frightful Ideas, therefore, of

Church