1734-35. liament pretended to be infallible. The Estimates they have Anno 8. Geo. II. given in have been found to be deficient, fome of the neceffary Services have been fometimes omitted, or the Sums thereby allotted have been found not fufficient for answering the Services for which they were appointed, and this is one of the Reasons why fo large a Debt now appears to be due on account of the Navy: Another Reafon is, that the Funds appointed by Parliament for raifing those Sums, which were yearly granted by them for the Service of the Navy, have been always found deficient; and a third Reafon is, that the Parliament have often found it neceffary for the Safety of the Nation, to give his Majefty Votes of Credit, in Pursuance of which fome additional Expences have been incurred, above what were mentioned in the Estimates yearly given in at the Beginning of the Seffion: And as fuch Expences were generally incurred by making Additions to our Navy, which is the natural Defence of this Nation in all Times of Danger, it has greatly increased the Debt due on account of our Navy, and is one of the chief Reasons why that Debt is now become fo confiderable. Some of thofe Accounts relating to the Navy-Debt, have been for several Years fucceffively laid upon your Table, and all of them, except fome few Articles which have lately accrued, were laid before the laft Seffion of Parliament; and for what Reasons, I shall not pretend to determine, the Parliament never thought fit to provide for those Deficiencies, or to pay off any Part of that Debt which had been thereby occafioned; tho' I must suppose that, as the Accounts were regularly laid before the Parliament, when the Tranfactions to which they related were fresh in every Man's Memory, if an Error or Fallacy could have been pointed out, or if any Objection could have been made to any one of the Articles, it would not only have been taken Notice of in this House, but would have been made a Subject for Clamour over the whole Nation; for there always have been, and I hope there always will be, a great Number of Gentlemen in this House not only capable, but ready and willing to discover any Fallacies that may be artfully foifted into our publick Accounts; and if any fuch Difcovery had been made, those who are difaffected to his Majesty's Government might, and would certainly have from thence endeavoured to have raised a popular Clamour against the Administration: For this Reafon I may fuppofe, that all the Accounts upon your Table have already been fufficiently canvaffed, and therefore I cannot think there is any Occafion for appointing a felect Committee for that Purpose. As for the Article, Sir, which the honourable Gentlethen have been pleafed to diftinguish by a particular Re mark, 1734-35. Anno 8. Geo. 11. mark, it is certain that Houses, Docks, Dock-yards, and Magazines, are as neceffary for the Support of our Navy as Ships of War; and it is as neceffary to rebuild the former, when fallen to Decay, as it is neceffary to rebuild the latter. To pretend that Minifters, by Directions from his Majesty, ought not to order a Dock, Dock-yard, or Admiralty-Office to be repaired or rebuilt, without having first laid the fame before Parliament, seems to me very extraordinary; it may be as well pretended, that they ought not to order a Man of War to be rebuilt or repaired, without first having laid the fame before Parliament: In this refpect the Sum can make no Difference; it is the Nature of the Service only we are to regard, when we are to determine, whether it ought to be laid before Parliament before it be undertaken; and furely no Man will fay, but that his Majesty, or his Minifters by his Direction, may give Orders to rebuild a Man of War, or to repair or rebuild a publick Office, without having firft laid the Affair before Parliament for their Approbation. I believe it will be granted, and if it were inquired into it would be found, that no Money has been laid out in this way, nor any House built, but what were abfolutely neceflary; and if there had been any Fallacy in the Accounts relating to that Expence, as they have been long upon the Table, it would certainly before now have been taken Notice of. Thus it must appear, Sir, that the Story we have been told of a Steward's running his Mafter in Debt, is no Way parallel to the prefent Cafe; for this Nation has been run into no extraordinary Expence, but what had not only the Authority of Parliament before it was undertaken, but the Approbation of Parliament after it was laid out: And if any Debt has been contracted, if the Funds appropriated for the Service of the Year have proved at any Time deficient, or if any Services have been incurred which were not provided for by Parliament, thofe Deficiencies and thofe Services have been regularly laid before Parliament as foon as they could be brought into an Account: And it is very certain, if a Steward should run his Master into no Expence but what he had a previous Authority for, and should fairly and honestly lay before his Mafter every Year, or as often as it could poffibly be done, a full Account of the Debt he had contracted in the preceding Year, that Steward could deferve no Cenfure from his Mafter. Now, Sir, as the naming of a felect Committee, to inquire into Accounts and Estimates, is a very extraordinary Method of Proceeding, a Method which has not been practifed for many Years, and never was often practifed, we muft fuppofe it will give a general Alarm, and make People imagine 1734-35. imagine that fome Frauds have been committed. This will Anno 8. Geo. II. of courfe throw a Reflection upon his Majesty's Government; and therefore I think we ought not to enter into any fuch Method without fome very ftrong Reafons; and as I can fee no Reason for our entering into any fuch Method, as I can fee no Good that can be expected from any fuch Method, as I am convinced it will do a great deal of Mischief, by raifing Jealoufies and Fears among his Majefty's Subjects, therefore I must be against the Motion.' To this it was replied by Mr Gybbon, Sir Jofeph Jekyll, Mr Gybbon. Mr William Pulteney, and other Members as follows: Sir, It is from the Knowledge I have of the Hiftory of this Nation in particular, and of Europe in general, that I am fo furprised, with refpect to the fmall Part of our publick Debts paid off, notwithstanding the Continuance of all our Taxes, and the vaft Sums that have been raised every Year; and the more I confider it, the lefs I can account for the unprofitable Use we have made of fuch a long Term of Peace. But I am still more surprised to hear any Gentleman fay, that all poffible Methods have been purfued, either for diminishing the publick annual Expence, or the annual Intereft due to the Creditors of the Publick; on the contrary I am convinced, that all poffible Methods have been pursued for increafing the firft, and no Opportunities have been embraced for reducing either the Principal or the Interest due to the Creditors of the Publick, but fuch as durft not be refufed or neglected. We have been for these twenty Years in a continued Courfe of publick Peace, at least we have had no War declared, nor any Broil with any of our Neighbours; and yet every Year we have been very near at as great an Expence, as we were at in any one Year of the heavy War in King William's Reign: We have had numerous Armies kept up in our own Country, we have maintained many Princes and Armies in foreign Countries, and we have fent many expenfive Squadrons into almost all Places of the World; and I fhould be glad to hear a Reason given for any of our naval Expeditions into the Baltick or the Mediterranean, by thofe, who are now for our looking quietly on to fee the Emperor ftript of his Dominions in Italy, and Mufcovy giving Sovereigns to its neighbouring Kingdoms. I fhould be glad to hear a Reason for our being fo alarmed at the Alliance, only between Spain and the Emperor, by those who now feem to be fo little alarmed at a Treaty, not only of Alliance but of Conqueft, between France, Spain and Sardinia : This, Sir, I do not fay with a Defign to infinuate that we VOL. IV. L have Sir Jof. Jekyll. 1734-35. Anno 8. Geo. II. have as yet any great Reason to be alarmed at this last Alliance, but I must think we had from the Beginning much greater Reafon to be alarmed with it, than ever we had to be alarmed with the former; and I must think it would now have been more juftifiable to have thrown ourselves into the Arms of the Emperor, to have prevented the Confequences of this laft Alliance, than ever it was to throw ourfelves into the Arms of France, to prevent the Confequences of the former: From all which I muft conclude, either that a great Part of the Expence we have formerly been at might have been faved, or that our prefent Inactivity is highly inexcufable; and which of these two to chufe I fhall leave to the Gentlemen who now so strenuously infift, that for these laft twenty Years we have taken all poffible Methods to diminish our annual Expence. Now, Sir, as to the diminishing of the Intereft payable to the Creditors of the Publick, can it be faid that we have taken any one Method to diminish it, but what the Nature of the Thing and the Circumftances of the Nation pointed out fo plainly, that it would have been highly criminal in any Adminiftration to have neglected the Opportunity? But if we had applied the Sinking Fund regularly to the Payment of our publick Debts, if we had fayed that Expence, which has been thrown away in maintaining numerous idle Armies, and fending out many idle Squadrons, and had applied all the Savings to the fame honest Purposes, the Principal of our publick Debts would have been fo greatly reduced, that the Creditors who remained unpaid would have been glad to have taken what Intereft we pleased: Nay, I do not know but the Principal would, by this Time, have been fo greatly reduced, that the three great Companies would have been glad to have paffed from the Payment of any future Intereft upon what was due to them, in order to have had their Charters continued. Whether Accounts were regularly laid before the Parliament of the prefent Navy-Debt, yearly as it became due, is what I fhall not pretend to deny, because I do not really know whether it was fo or not; but if this be true, which I fhall, in Complaifance to the honourable Gentlemen, admit, it is the strongest Argument that can be given for what is now propofed; it is a full Confirmation of the old Proverb that What is every Man's Business is no Man's Bufiress, and therefore an unanswerable Argument for our returning to the old Cuftom of Parliament, and app.inting felect Committees every Year to confider and examine every Eftimate laid before us: For I hope no Man will fay but that we ought, in Time of Peace efpecially, to raife as much within the Year as will anfwer the Service of the Year; and 1734-35. and if any Deficiency fhould happen in the Funds granted Anno 8. Geo. II. for one Year, or if it fhould be found that the Estimates were deficient, all thofe Deficiencies ought certainly to be made good the very next Year. It is certainly inconfiftent with the publick Good to leave Arrears long due, because when Tradefmen, or those who furnish the Publick with what is neceffary for publick Ufe, muft lie for Years out of their Money, it is certain they neither can nor will ferve the Pablick fo cheap, as when they know they are sure of their Money within a few Months after the Goods are delivered'; and the longer any of thofe Arrears ftand unpaid, the greater Price they will be obliged to pay for every Thing afterwards bought for publick Ufe. With refpect to Minifters, indeed, and the Tools employed under them, I muft obferve, Sir, that it is of great Advantage to have publick Accounts ftand long in Arrear ; and this Advantage is greater in the Navy than in any other Branch of publick Bufinefs, because Tradefmen, and others who ferve the Publick, but especially Seamen, cannot lie long out of their Money: If they cannot get their Money foon after it becomes due, they must go to Ufurers, minifterial Tools, and fuch like Extortioners, to fell or pledge their publick Securities. This brings fuch Securities to Difcount, the longer they are of being paid, the greater Difcount they come to be at; fo that at laft they furnish a plentiful Harveft to Minifters and their Favourites; for when the Discount upon thofe Securities is raised to a fufficient Height, Minifters then give the Watch-Word to their Agents and Favourites to go out and purchase; and when they have got them all, or most of them into their Hands, then the minifterial Bowels begin to yearn for the Sufferings of the publick Creditors, in having lain fo long out of their Money; and great Merit is affumed from their coming to a companionate Refolution, to have fuch or fuch a Clafs of pubfick Creditors paid off: This Houfe is always too good natured to refufe fuch a juft Requeft; and thus Extortioners get the ful! Value of thofe Securities, which they purchase at a great Discount. This, Sir, I fhall not fay is the Cafe at prefent; but I muft fay I am apt to believe, if an Inquiry were made into the Affair, it would be found that there is but a fmall Part of the Debt, due upon the Navy, now in the Hands of the original Creditors of the Publick 3 and even this, Sir, is an Inquiry not unworthy of the Reprefentatives of Great Britain in Parliament. But, Sir, whatever the Intereft of Minifters may be, it iis certainly the Intereft of the Publick to pay off their Debts regularly, and as foon as poffible; and as I am convinced every Gentlemen now, or formerly, in this House, L 2 has, |