George Green.-Is a manufacturer, and has been so engaged for thirty years; has employed during the last four or five years twenty-four or twenty five children. Formerly he employed more. He has always employed two sets of children, one for day, and one for night work. The day set never continue their work through the night, except by choice. They do so sometimes for the sake of extra wages, and having the following day to themselves. The deponent employs younger children through the night than last witness, but they are never William Lutener, surgeon.-Has lived in left without a man to look after them. From Newtown for the last ten years, and is of course his own experience, should think it impossible well acquainted with the town. Has been in- to keep children at work thirty-six hours; has formed, and believes, that children were form-known them occasionally work for twenty-four erly kept at their work in some of the manu- successive hours, but this has been entirely factories thirty-six successive hours, including their own choice.

Edward Williams.-Has been in the manufacturing trade thirty years; never heard of children being kept at work thirty-six hours, and is certain from his own experience it is impossible. Has heard the statement of the four last witnesses, and believes it to be

correct.

David Davies. Has been a manufacturer | selling, as it was well known they did, about twenty-five years. Employs now about not from any desire to injure their offspring twelve or fourteen children. He formerly kept but rather from their necessities, the labour' more. When the trade is brisk he keeps two sets, of their children. No one could defend a one for night, and the other for day work. At ordinary times, having no occasion for night system by which children were worked work, only one set is kept. Thirteen hours is beyond their strength, and it was important the usual time of day work, including from also to know that by a statement on the two to three hours for meals. Had never heard subject made at the end of the last Session of children being kept thirty-six hours at work the mortality occasioned by the practice till these last few days, and from his own ex- amounted in some places to as much as perience believes it to be impossible. into detail he thought a complete case for twelve per cent. Without going further passing the Bill of the noble Lord had been made out; but he was at the same time ready to admit that they would not be doing justice to the masters if they did not afford them an opportunity which they sought of vindicating themselves from the heavy charge of inhumanity under which they laboured. If the Motion of the hon. member for Lancashire were agreed to, a return might be had within such a time as would enable the House to pass the noble Lord's Bill during the present Session; and it was with that view, and upon that understanding only, that he should vote for the issuing of the proposed Commission of Inquiry. He was as unwilling as the noble Lord, or any other hon. Member, to retard the progress of the measure; but he could not, at the same time, help thinking that no inconvenience would arise from the inquiry.

Jeremiah Williams, Jeremiah Steele, and Solomon Jones are manufacturers, and carry on work at the Milford manufactory; never heard, till within the last few days, of children being kept at work, either there or anywhere else, thirty-six hours, and are certain it is impossible. Have heard the evidence of the five last witnesses, and are satisfied it is

correct.

William Davies.-Has been a manufacturer many years, and has been in the habit of employing children. Had never heard, till within these last few days, of children being employed thirty-six successive hours, and thinks it is impossible. Has heard the evidence of the last seven witnesses and believes it to be

correct.

Mary Davies. Has a child employed in Mr. Green's manufactory; her usual time of working is thirteen hours, including meal-time. Has occasionally known her work sixteen hours, including meal-times; but this has been very seldom, and only at busy times. She has also been sometimes without work at all, but has at such times always received her wages. Mr. Green is a good master. The child has very good health.

Such was the statement shortly of men whom he knew to be most respectable. It had been sent to him by the Coroner for the county who was a medical practitioner of the highest reputation. But, dismissing the evidence given before the Committee of last year altogether from his mind, he still was of opinion that the House had grounds in abundance upon which to legislate. By the medical evidence given before the Committee of the Lords in a former Session it was manifest that more labour was required of children employed in factories than their constitutions could bear, and, such being the case, he did not conceive any rational man could doubt the propriety of limiting the hours of their work, and taking steps to prevent their parents from. VOL. XVII. {}

Third

He

Mr. Lennard, recollecting that the result of the Committee which was appointed last year was, to prevent the Bill from being carried through in the course of the Session, would not consent to a similar proposition at the present time. could see no object to be gained by the delay. He could understand why hon. Gentlemen connected with the manufacturing districts should wish to give the master-manufacturers an opportunity of explaining their conduct. But with that the House had nothing to do. Their duty was to consider, whether there were sufficient grounds to warrant them in legislating on the subject. He contended that there was abundant evidence for that purpose; and, further, he agreed with the right hon. member for Montgomeryshire, that if there were not a tittle of evidence, the enactments of the Bill were on the face of them such as every body must agree to. For what were they? That no person under age should be worked harder than the slaves in our colonies. He said harder, for by Act of Parliament E

He

the slaves in our colonies were not to be | could not hinder it. The evidence taken worked for more than nine hours in the before this Committee was all on one side day, and (besides the Sabbath) were to and to support one view; but there was a have one day of rest in the week, while distinct understanding and agreement that even by this Bill of Amelioration, the fac- the other side of the case should aftertory children were to be worked ten hours wards be fully and fairly investigated. in the day, and were not to have any day The evidence closed with the close of the of rest. But the proposition of the noble Session, and Members had left London Lord was so reasonable, that it would be before its publication. Now, he doubted a waste of time to advert further to the whether in strict fairness this should have evidence, and he therefore only begged of been, tending as it did to raise unfair the House to bear in mind that Mr. Sadler prejudices against individuals; yet, on the had not sought the Committee, but that, whole, he could not regret it, inasmuch protesting against it as unnecessary, it was as he was sure its publication would have forced upon him. One great point to a righteous and benevolent result. He had which this question had reference, was the no hesitation in believing that if the ingreat depreciation in the morals and quiry had been further carried on, as many manners of the people caused by the pre-sleek, straight, and chubby children would sent system. It should not be considered merely on the ground of the welfare of the children themselves, but on that of the future welfare of the country generally. Could any thing be more frightful and abhorrent than the picture of moral debasement and profligacy which persons so employed presented? It was impossible by such a system to afford them education of any kind, and their bodies were so exhausted by fatigue as to render them unable to sit in church during divine service on Sundays. If, then, the Legislature felt it necessary to interpose on behalf of the slave, surely it was not too much to expect that House to interfere on behalf of a helpless child who was placed in a still worse situation. The object of the Poor Laws was to protect children as well as persons who were destitute, and if the Poor Laws had been properly administered, there would be no occasion for burthening children in this way beyond their power of endurance. Had the children in agricultural districts been treated as those connected with manufacturing places were, the Magistrates would be blamed, and an outcry would be raised which would not easily be stifled. He should resist this or any other Motion which might cause any delay in the progress of the noble Lord's Bill.

Lord Morpeth said, the question divided itself into two heads-first, the claim for the inquiry made by the manufacturers; and next, supposing that claim to be admitted, whether the general case should outride the particular one. What were the facts of the case? The Committee was forced on Mr. Sadler much against his will; he consented to it only because he

have been brought forward as there had
been deformed and emaciated ones.
must say, he very much doubted the ac-
counts of deformed bodies and debased
minds created by this system, and thought
the odium of great and continued cruelty
which had been attached to it was the re-
presentation of the exception and not of
the rule; that what had been advanced
was not an accurate representation of the
ordinary economy of a 'mill, nor the true
picture of the feelings and conduct of a
British manufacturer. He felt, that the
manufacturers ought to be allowed an op-
portunity of showing, that inhumanity
formed no part of the economy of a British
factory, and that the statements which
had been made upon the subject were not
the fact. This vindication of the masters
was, however, perfectly distinct from the
Bill of his noble friend, which rested upon
premises that were undeniable, and beyond
the reach of cavil or doubt; and if it was,
therefore, not to be denied that undue
hardship and suffering were inflicted upon
children, it must be admitted, that Parlia-
ment was imperiously required to enact
some substantial and efficient measure for
their relief. He had himself been pre-
pared to take upon him the responsibility
of introducing a similar Bill, and, that
being the case, he hoped his noble friend
would not consent to delay the progress of
his measure an instant. The matter was
not now in his own hands, but he should
act just as if it were, and vote against the
Motion for a Commission.

Mr. George W. Wood said, he was extremely unwell, and would gladly have refrained from taking any part in the debate, but his sense of duty compelled

but, in doing that, let them take care not to ruin those manufactures on which these children depended for bread. The hon. Member concluded by saying, that he thought the inquiry should be granted, in justice not only to the manufacturers, but also to the working classes themselves.

him to do so. He was bound to advocate most strongly the necessity of instituting a fresh inquiry, and he must contend that the noble Lord (Ashley) had founded his proposition on a contemplation only of the evidence on one side. That noble Lord had also, in his speech on the present occasion, laid great stress on the evidence Mr. Robinson was of opinion that the adduced before the House of Lords in House was in a condition to legislate at 1815, forgetting that, since that period, once on this important subject, not only such immense changes had taken place in on the evidence taken last year, but on the the character and management of factory evidence taken on previous occasions. He labour, as rendered that evidence no was not of opinion the evidence produced evidence at all. He was surprised to had shown that the manufacturers were hear from the noble Lord the argument heartless or unmindful of the health and that the manufacturers ought to be indif- comfort of their labourers; but the testiferent to the preservation of their charac- mony of medical men had convinced him ters every where else but in their own dis- that working for twelve hours a-day was tricts. The manufacturers only asked the ruinous to the health of the children. House to complete that investigation And as he saw no limitation on the time which it last year determined to enter of employing them, unless the Legislature upon. It seemed to him rather singular imposed it, he was willing at once to legisthat the noble Lord (Ashley), in quoting late on the subject. He doubted if a and commenting upon the medical limitation of the labour of children would evidence which applied to the question, have the effect upon the Poor Laws which should have selected those portions only was anticipated by hon. Members who had which favoured his own view of the case, spoken; for working people, when asked while he threw overboard all that was of for what reason they allowed their chilan opposite character. He wished the noble dren to work for so many hours, uniformly Lord had referred to the evidence of Dr. answered, that nothing but distress forced Holdson, who was much respected at them to commit such cruelty; and when Manchester, but whose opinions were further questioned, they admitted that somewhat at variance with those of many much of the produce of their labour was of the medical men who were examined spent in medicines and medical attendance. last year. The noble Lord proposed, upon It was but fair, therefore, to suppose that what he must call partial and inconclusive the noble Lord's Bill, in as far as it would evidence, a measure, which, as it stood, have the effect of improving the health of would reduce by one-sixth the whole of the children, would enable them to work the productive industry of the country. more regularly, and in as far as consiWas it too much, then, for those who not derable expense would be saved from the only were deeply interested in the subject same cause, would not have the effect of themselves, whose character was involved, increasing the Poor-rates to the extent and whose property was at stake, and who anticipated by the hon. Members who had naturally wished to promote the welfare spoken for the Motion. He was at a loss of their own workmen and people in their to know from what source the hon. memown neighbourhood, to ask the House to ber for Lancashire had derived the calcusee how the facts really stood, and whether lation which went to show that the adopthe regulations which were proposed would tion of the noble Lord's Bill would diminish. accomplish the objects in view before the productive power of the country by one those regulations received the force of law? sixth. He supposed that the hon. MemWould the noble Lord venture to say, ber must have meant the produce of infant that he had ascertained, on his own author-labour. He was inclined to go fully as ity, that such would be the case? Was it not just possible that there might be peculiar circumstances in different manufactures, or even in the same manufacture in different parts of the empire, which would require different enactments? He was anxious to protect the children in factories,

far as the Bill of the noble Lord went; and if the manufacturing and trading superiority of this country over foreign countries was only to be maintained by a continuance of the present system, he would be ready to sacrifice that superiority. denied, however, that the trade could be

He

maintained by such a system. If there were no other way of maintaining the mercantile superiority of this country than by pressing as at present on the labour of children, their condition would get worse and worse, and the difficulties of the manufacturer would daily increase. He thought, therefore, that in justice to the people, as well as in policy and morality, the House was bound to adopt the proposition of the noble Lord. He hoped, at all events, if the House considered further evidence necessary before proceeding to legislate upon the subject, that they would re-appoint a Committee of Inquiry rather than the Commission moved for by the hon. Member.

Mr. Mark Phillips contended that it was but just to the manufacturers to institute a counter-inquiry, in order that the real state of the children employed in the cotton trade might be ascertained. If the contemplated Bill were ever adopted, he hoped it would be accompanied by other measures, to protect the interests of the owners of machinery, in the present depressed state of the cotton trade. It was well known that the cotton-trade was in such a state that the profits were nearly annihilated; and if the noble Lord's Bill passed, he was sure that they would soon hear of that state of things which the hon. member for Birmingham had described. When he heard the manufacturers called

when their factories were termed bastiles, and when there was a system of agitation and excitement on this subject out of the House, great care should be taken to legislate with calmness. He did not ask inquiry for the sake of delay, but because he thought it right in that House to be quite sure of their ground before passing an onerous, and he was afraid a ruinous, enactment.

Mr. Robert Ferguson gave all credit to Mr. Sadler for the humanity of his motives, but that gentleman had seen only one side of the question. He advocated inquiry, for the sake of the children themselves. He would divide the Commission into three branches, in order that the delay might be as little as possible, and the measure, after due consideration, might be passed in the present Session.

Dr. Lushington said, that the only ques-murderers, and charged with infanticidetion was, whether the House was in a condition to legislate; and when he looked to the quantity and variety of the evidence which was before them, he could not doubt that the House possessed sufficient information. He thought that they had complete evidence to prove what was necessary to do in this matter; and after all the arguments which he had heard on both sides of the question, he had come to the conclusion that the hon. Member's Motion was not only unnecessary, but, from the delay it would occasion, decidedly injurious. If the evidence of the medical gentlemen, and the evidence taken before the Committee of last year, and on previous occasions, gave a true view of the state of the children in the manufacturing districts, what would the effect of the delay be? A renewal and continuance of the same miseries to an indefinite period till those Commissioners chose to give in their Report. But what valid evidence could be obtained in the face of the fact stated by Dr. Bailey and the other medical men who were examined, that no infant could labour for twelve hours in a manufactory without injury to health? And why take evidence by means of Commissioners? He did not know what confidence the House might place in evidence taken by Commissioners, but he could say, that he would place none. He knew that Sir John Hobhouse had wished to go further in his Bill than he had gone, and that it was only from a wish to have the co-operation of the manufacturers, in order to ensure a certain quantum of good, rather than have none, that he did not carry the principles of his measure further. He must protest against the Motion.

Mr. Hardy, as a Representative of a borough dependent upon factories, said, that the Motion for a Commission, if agreed to, would prevent legislation this year, and excite, and properly, the greatest dissatisfaction in the great body of the country. There had been an open Committee, and a full case had been made out for legislation. The system was monstrous, and even at that midnight hour there were many hapless children suffering from the effects of the present system. If a Commission were granted, its inquiries must be partial, or they must extend to a great period of time. He admitted readily that there were many factories in which not only no cruelty was practised, but every attention was paid to the comfort and welfare of children; but he contended that, upon the other hand, it was established beyond the reach of contradiction that