hoped that the Commission would turn out advantageously. He disclaimed all desire of obtaining popularity by bringing forward this measure, and, at the same time, expressed his belief that his Bill would be of as much advantage to Ministers as it would be to himself. Mr. Spring Rice said, that the disclaimer of the noble Lord was perfectly unnecessary. He might be satisfied that the utmost care would be taken by Government in the selection of the Commissioners, for it would be worse than folly to appoint Commissioners whose characters were not far beyond all impeachment. It ought, however, to be observed, that this appointment of a Commission was not upon the motion of the Government, but on that of an individual wholly unconnected with Government. If information were necessary on this subject, it could be rendered valuable only by having it procured by well-qualified persons, and, therefore, Ministers had the strongest interest in appointing competent men. He did not think that any persons would refuse to answer questions put to them by the Commissioners; but if any person did refuse there could be no doubt that the House would immediately pass a short Bill to compel them to answer, and even upon oath, if required. As soon as the Commissioners were appointed, the terms of the Commission, and the names of the parties appointed, should be laid before the House, and the noble Lord would then have the opportunity of objecting to the Commission and Commissioners, if he thought proper. Sir Robert Inglis suggested to Ministers the propriety of making the Commission not only able and intelligent, but also numerous, in order that it might institute inquiries in different places at the same time. a List of Barristers appointed by the Lord Lieutenant of Bill. Read a third time :-Seamen's Hospital. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Conveyance. Monday, April 15, 1833. MINUTES.] Bills. Read a third time:-Customs' Wharfs' Petitions presented. By Mr. F. BUXTON, from Jedburgh, against the Punishment of Death for Forgery.-By Mr. LAMBTON, Mr. F. BUXTON, Mr. HARVEY, Mr. ABERCROMBIE, and Mr. BLAMIRE, Sir OSWALD MOSELEY, and Mr. E. TENNENT, from a Number of Places,-for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.-By Lord JOHN RUSSEL from Chudley, &c.; and by Mr. A. CHAPMAN, from the Dissenters of Whitby, for a Removal of the Disabilities affecting the Dissenters.-By Mr. ABERCROMBIE, from Edinburgh, in favour of the Royal Burghs (Scotland) Bill; from the Printers of Edinburgh, for the Repeal of the Taxes on Knowledge; from other Trades, for a Repeal of the Duty on Stamp Receipts; and against the Disturbances (Ireland) Bill.-By Mr. LAMBTON, from the Clergy of Durham, against the Church Reform (Ireland) Bill→→→ By Mr. MURRAY, from Leith, for a free Trade with China.-By Mr. ROEBUCK, from a Literary Society at Worcester, for adopting a National System of Education; from the Disciples of Mr. Owen, in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill; and from St. James's, Bristol, for a Repeal of the Assessed Taxes.-By Sir CHARLES COOTE, from Maryborough, complaining of the Corporation, and praying for Relief.-By Mr. RICHARD POTTER, from an Association at Manchester, in favour of the Highways Bill. -By Mr. OLIPHANT, from Perth, for an Alteration in the Royal Burghs (Scotland) Bill; and from the Handloom Weavers of that Town, for a Board of Trade, and for Relief.-By Sir OSWALD MOSLEY, from two Places, against the Sale of Beer Act.-By Mr. S. LEFEVRE, from Winchester, for a Repeal of the Duty on Malt.-By Mr. VIVIAN, Mr. A. CHAPMAN, Mr. ABERCROMBIE, Mr. BLAMIRE, Mr. MORISON, Mr. SANFORD, Mr. F. BUXTON, Mr, LAMBTON, Mr. MADOCKS, and Mr. S. LEFEVRE, Sir RICHARD BULKELEY, Sir OSWALD MOSLEY, and Sir FRANCIS BLAKE, from seventy-six Places,-for the Abolition of Slavery.-By Sir FRANCIS BURDETT, from Bath, not to Legislate as to Colonial Slavery until further Inquiry was made into the condition of the Slaves; and from St. George's, Hanover Square, complaining of the heavy, and unequal Rate levied on them for the Support of the Police, and for Relief; also complaining of Irish Paupers, and for Poor Laws to Ireland. PROCLAIMING OF KILKENNY.] the Question that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply House copies of all proclamations issued by the Lord-lieutenant under the Irish Coercive Bill, the reasons given for the same, and the amount of crime committed within the last twelve months in the city of Kilkenny. Lord Althorp begged to suggest to the hon. Member the expediency of withdrawing his Motion till the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland took his seat tomorrow. He fully concurred in the observation of the hon. and learned Gentleman, that the House, having granted these extraordinary powers to the Government, was bound to keep a jealous eye over the exercise of them. Motion withdrawn. Mr. Mr. O'Connell said, that he saw no person present connected with the Irish Government; but he must, notwithstanding, request some information with respect to the Proclamations lately issued by the Lordlieutenant of Ireland under the Bill which deprived that country of the Constitution. It had been decidedly intimated on the passing of that Bill, that there was no disposition to carry it into effect. It was indeed expressly said, that it never would be carried into effect, except under the pressure of absolute necessity. In spite of this assurance, a most wanton and outrageous act had been committed under the Bill, which sufficiently showed the truth of what he had often said, that despotic power could not be intrusted in the hands of any man. Possession was itself SALARIES OF THE JUDGES.] a temptation to abuse it. The Bill had Hume said, as there were strong rumours hardly arrived in Ireland before the county of very considerable changes in the juof Kilkenny was put out of the pale of dicial department, in consequence of some the law. Part of that county was, he retirements being about to take place, and acknowledged, in a disturbed state; but as some other changes would, of course, there was a considerable part of it per- follow, he was anxious to remind the noble fectly tranquil; yet this was punished in- Lord (Lord Althorp) that the salaries of discriminately with the rest. But what the Judges had for the last thirty years, he particularly wished to impress upon been increased to a very enormous extent. the House was, that the county of the When any new appointment took place, city of Kilkenny had also been put under he hoped that Government would show the operation of the Act, although there that they intended seriously to grant some was not the slightest appearance of insub-relief to the country, overburthened by ordination in that city to justify it; for, if heavy taxation. he was rightly informed, the offences committed there within the last twelve months amounted only to five, the most serious of which was a petty larceny case. One reason assigned for this wanton outrage was that since the county of Kilkenny was in so disturbed a state as to require procla-ject. He was not, however, prepared to mation, they must also extend the proclamation to the city, or else the inhabitants of the proclaimed districts would nullify the Proclamation by going into the city. This was a most ridiculously frivolous pretext; they must, on this principle, proclaim the whole country at once. The real state of the case was, that it was considered much more convenient for the members of the military tribunals to remain comfortably in their hotels in the city, than to venture out here and there in the really disturbed parts of the country. This was the real reason why a city which had committed no offence, and which contained a population of 24,000 souls, had been put out of the pale of the law. The hon. Member concluded by moving, that there be laid before the Lord Althorp said, the present Lord Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench had accepted that appointment upon a considerable reduction of the salary, which was a sufficient proof that the Government had turned its attention to the sub give a specific answer to the question of the hon. Member, nor could he see, that the subject was so pressing as to call upon him to bring it particularly forward that night. Mr. Cobbett said, he did not know by how much the salary of the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench had been reduced, but it ought to have been reduced to the standard which prevailed before 1795, for it had been raised, in consequence of the depreciation which had subsequently taken place in the currency. It was then 4,5007. and it had since been raised to 10,000l. The salaries of police Magistrates, too, deserved consideration. These were originally fixed at 3007. a- year, and were now 8001. He should like to know what that increase had been for? 119 Salaries of the Judges. upon its ancient footing than with the 120 salary at present attached to it. {COMMONS} He should like to be told why they might not be brought back to 3007.? such reductions throughout the establishIt was by ments of the country, that the noble Lord could alone expect to reduce the expenditure of the country to the means of the people. This was what they expected, from the Reform Bill, which would be of no use to them unless it produced economy. Lord Althorp stated, that, in 1795, the Judges were in possession of saleable patronage, attached to their office, on which they now no longer had any claim; and it was in remuneration for their loss of that patronage that their salaries had been raised. It should be remembered, that unless the Government paid well, it could not command the services of the ablest lawyers. Mr. Hume wished to ask the noble Lord, whether at present the number of Judges was not too great? That number had been increased some time ago because the Judges had too much business to perform, and he understood that at present there was not sufficient employment for the original number of Judges? The Solicitor General begged to say, in answer to the question of the hon. Member, that he could assure him as far as regarded the Court to which he (the Solicitor General) belonged, that there was sufficient work there for all the Judges in it; and that, in fact, he believed there was no portion of the labouring classes in London-such as porters, and other hardworking individuals-so severely worked as were the Judges of that Court. He believed, that the other Judges in Westminster-hall were also completely employed, though he could not speak so positively upon that point, as he did not practise in their Courts. With regard to what the hon. Member opposite had said as to the salaries of the Judges, he could assure him, that the office of Chief Justice of the King's Bench was not near so valuable now as it was forty or fifty years ago. That office had been since stripped (he was ready to admit most properly stripped) of such a quantity of valuable patronage the office of chief clerk, for instance, amongst others—that it was by no means so valuable now as it had been formerly. Under such circumstances an adequate salary must be attached to the office. It would have been much better for the present Chief Justice of the King's Bench to have accepted the office - be in the Court of King's Bench, but he to what had fallen from the hon. member destroy the emoluments of the profession to which he had the honour to belong. Mr. Charles Buller thought, good Judges might be got without such very large emoluments. It would be, in his opinion, an improvement, if there was not so great a difference as at present, be and of the Chiefs, which made all the clever men avoid accepting the former, in the hope of getting the latter. equally good, but then the merits of all [ant, even although that would go far to were not the same, and it was thought that it would be extremely hard that a man should bring his cause into Court and not know before whom it was to be tried. There was nothing at present to prevent individuals from bringing their causes into the Courts of Common Pleas and Exchequer. He was surprised to hear from thetween the salaries of the puisne Judges hon. Gentleman, that there was so little business just now in the Court of Common Pleas. This he (the Solicitor General) could state, that there were at present as many remanets in the Court of Exchequer as in the Court of King's Bench. This he could promise the hon. Gentleman and the House, that any measure the object of which would be to facilitate and render cheaper the administration of justice should have his cordial support; and he believed it would have the support of the profession to which he belonged. The House, when it was considering the salaries of the Judges, should bear in mind the innumerable evils that would follow the appointment of a bad Judge, such as new trials, arrests of judgments, &c. He did not pretend to say what ought to be the amount of the emoluments attached to such situations, but he was sure that the House would see that they always should be such as to command the services of the best men in the profession. Sir Matthew White Ridley could not concur in the remarks made by the hon. member for Colchester, that eminent men were induced to look for high situations on the Bench merely from pecuniary motives. He did not see that they deserved such a stigma, when it was well known that many of them were making, at the Bar, double the sum that was paid as salary to a Judge. Mercenary men were not likely to do so. They could not expect to get the ablest men for Judges, if they did not give at least as high salaries as those men would make by following their profession at the Bar. SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES.] The House went into a Committee of Supply upon the Navy Estimates, Sir James Graham, in proposing the first vote for the expense of the Admiralty, said, that he felt great pleasure in announcing to the House, that, notwithstanding the reduction of 7,000l. which had been made under this head last year, a still further reduction of 17,000l. was made in the present Estimates, together with the sum of 5,000l. arising from fees, which had been altogether abolished; thus showing a reduction under this head during the last two years of not less than 29,000l. He Mr. O'Connell thought that none but practical men could be good Judges, and it would be obvious that they could not be selected from men of small practice. With respect to the marshalling of causes hitherto, if one Court was overburthened, they should be transferred to others. With respect to plaintiffs choosing their own Court, that was at least a hardship upon all the defendants. He remembered a Court in Dublin, before fees were abol-had also the pleasure to inform the House ished, in which there was a considerable fee upon the record; and in that Court seventy-three plaintiffs out of seventyfour gained their causes. Of course, they all carried their causes to that Court. If any newspaper in Dublin had mentioned that circumstance at the time, it would have been prosecuted. He hoped the time was not far distant when local Courts would be established, not confined to a paltry 201., but enabled, like the old county Courts, to take cognizance of any Mr. Hume said, that as the House had cases to any amount. He hoped, also, to already decided upon the amount of men see in those Courts that the first witnesses to be employed, which involved the gecalled should be the plaintiff and defend-neral question of reduction, he would not that the balance-sheet for the last year was now upon the Table of the House. It would show that the estimates for the last year had not been exceeded; but, on the contrary, that there was a considerable balance remaining out of them. The right hon. Baronet concluded by moving, that the sum of 104,070l. should be granted for defraying the salaries of officers, and contingent expenses of the Admiralty for the year 1833. {COMMONS} trouble it by calling for a division upon any of those resolutions. The right hon. Gentleman had certainly made a great many reductions. The changes had been SO great, and the consolidations so numerous, since the right hon. Gentleman had come into his present of fice, that it was impossible to say exactly what would be the result of the whole; but, as far as they went, he was inclined to believe that they would be useful. The amount of reductions effected was, he admitted, very considerable. The general scale of reduction, however, adopted by his Majesty's Government in the different establishments of the country was much too contracted. The noble Lord opposite must have recourse to much more extensive reductions. Such was the opinion of every individual with whom he (Mr. Hume) conversed upon the subject. Indeed, none but those individuals who were connected with the Government seemed to think it possible to keep up the existing establishments. As the House had already decided as to the number of men to be employed, it would be doing no good to endeavour to cut off this or that vote in the Estimates. Sir James Graham said, as far as the number of men were concerned, a large majority of the House had already declared it necessary. The amount of the forces must always be guided by the circumstances in which the country was placed. He hoped that next year the necessity for keeping up so large a force would not exist. The hon. Member was exceedingly desirous to guard Government against an increase of expenditure; but he would beg to remind that hon. Member, that, excluding the half-pay, and those items over which his Majesty's Government had no control, there had been a decrease in the last two years of not less than thirty per cent in the expense of the effective service, and that service, he believed, was more efficient than before. Resolution agreed to. The next Resolution was, that 21,7251. be granted to his Majesty to defray the salaries of the officers and contingent expenses of the Navy Pay Office. Mr. Hume asked, whether the expense of sending money to the outports could not be saved? He saw, in the estimate, a charge of 2751. for messengers accompanying the money to the dockyards. Of that he did not complain so much, but there was a further sum of 2,000l. charged, 124 which he considered as so much money subject his best attention, having once Mr. Poulett Thomson had given the supposed, like his hon. friend, that a considerable saving might be made; but he found that the business was now carried on at the cheapest rate possible. The bankers would not undertake to send the money unless a deposit was placed in their hands, and a commission given them. If, indeed, the Bank of England had any branch banks at the outports, the business might have been easily arranged. In the Act establishing the branch banks of the Bank of England, a clause was inserted forbidding these branches from making any payments, except where the branch was actually established. There was a branch at Exeter, but there was none either at Portsmouth or Plymouth; and therefore it was impossible to make an arrangement such as he had contemplated. Mr. Hume wished to know how the gold sent down to pay the seamen? business was done now? Were notes or gold were sent. balance which the Government had in the trust the bankers. Vote agreed to. be granted to his Majesty to defray the opportunity he ought to take to bring the lay the case of the young men, who he |