Vote agreed to. On the Motion that 114,9707. be granted for salaries of Officers and expenses of Naval Establishments, gently making a progress in naval archi- | tecture, we seemed to be retrograding. Other countries thought it necessary to keep up their scientific establishments, but we were destroying ours. He thought at Mr. Hume objected to the Captainsleast, that the men who for twenty-six Superintendants of the Dock-yards of years had been bred up to this profession, Pembroke and Woolwich receiving pay who were not only good practical ship-in addition to their pay as captains of builders, but well acquainted with all the yachts. science connected with their profession, he could not help thinking that it would have been wise to have formed such a body of men into a small board, rather than break up the establishment altogether. At present no plan was followed in building our ships, but one was built or altered according to the whim of one man, and another was built or altered according to the whim of another man. There was no principle whatever followed in building our ships, because we had not one system of education and one mode of instruction. Sir James Graham said, that after the best information they could obtain, the Board of Admiralty thought the most proper course to pursue was to appoint men who united scientific knowledge with practical experience. He could assure the hon. Member, that measures would be taken to give the public all the information which might be laid before the Board of Naval Architecture. Mr. Hume was desirous of knowing explicitly whether Captain Symonds's plan had been successful or not? He understood that the Vernon, which had been built on the principles suggested by that officer, had turned out a complete failure. It was now two years and a half since the experiment had been tried, and it was only right the public should know whether or not it had answered the purposes it was designed for. Sir James Graham answered, that as far as the Board of Admiralty was advised upon the subject, the superiority of the Vernon and of all the other vessels built under Captain Symonds's superintendence to vessels built upon any other system was remarkably great. The officers appointed to try their efficiency had reported those vessels to be of extraordinary strength and power, with all the good qualities of the lightest vessels. Captain Dundas declared, on the authority of Sir Francis Collier, who commanded the Vernon, that the experiment had fully succeeded. Sir James Graham said, if there was one thing more than another for which he might take credit, it was his endeavour to reduce the expenditure for the royal yachts. One of these was constantly at Pembroke, the other at Woolwich, and the captains of each did full and active duty as Superintendants of those yards. [Mr. Hume: Are there only two royal yachts?] There were formerly five, One of these, which had been usually at the service of the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland he had wholly done away with. Two were afloat at the command of his Majesty, and he did not think that the House or the country would object to his Majesty, who had been bred up in the navy, having two vessels for his sole use. The other two were, by the arrangement he had alluded to, no longer sinecures, but tributary to the public service. Mr. Hume said, then there were, in fact, still four yachts. He freely admitted the propriety of placing two at the disposal of his Majesty, but the other two should, in his opinion, be put down. Sir James Graham said, that, from the time of William 3rd. to the present day, there had never been less than four royal yachts. George 3rd., when at Weymouth, had always three in immediate attendance upon him. He (Sir J.) thought it right to keep up the number of four, that the other two might be ready if they were ever wanted. Mr. Hume said, they should be kept up, not on the ground of usage, but for the purpose of use. Why had they applied schedules A and B to certain boroughs? Because they did not want them. Yet usage might, on the same principle, have shielded those boroughs, as now it was advanced to uphold these yachts. He was sorry to hear such reasons adduced for maintaining what the country did not require. Resolution agreed to. On the Question that a sum not exceeding 438,4261, be granted to his Majesty for the wages of artificers, &c. em ployed in his Majesty's naval establish- | moral considerations. It appeared, that ments at home, the demand for labour at Van Diemen's taken without difficulty: and he spoke upon this subject the opinion both of his noble friend, the late, and of his right hon. friend the present, Secretary of State for the Colonial Department. Time, however, must be given for the arrangement. If the convicts were all removed at once, the sudden demand for labourers in the Dock-yards would create an inconvenient rise in the price of that labour. Another difficulty in the arrangement was caused by the consideration, that many of the convicts had already gone through the greater portion of their time, and that, in such cases it might be desirable to allow them to complete their time in the yards. He would, however, undertake to say, that no fresh convicts should be sent there. He had to add, in making the reductions, care had been taken to keep the most efficient men. Mr. B. Carter stated, that he had a peti-Land was so great that this step might be tion in his possession from a number of the inhabitants of Portsmouth, complaining of the hardships to which the artificers of Portsmouth Dock-yard had been subjected, by the discharge of a great many hands, by the degradation of many who had acquired a certain rank in the yard to an inferior rank, and, above all, by the employment of convicts in the yard. He was happy to hear that his Majesty's Government intended to correct the lastmentioned evil; and he trusted that the intention would be carried into effect with as little delay as possible; for nothing could be more irksome to honest and free men, than to be associated in labours with persons of so different a description. Captain Dundas observed, that the attention of the House had been for many weeks called to the misery of the people of Ireland. That misery was at least equalled, if not exceeded, by the misery of the inhabitants of a district not four On the Question, that a sum of 63,7001. · miles from the metropolis; he meant be granted to defray the expense of new Deptford; where, in consequence of the works and improvements in the Docknumber of artificers who had been dis-yards, charged from the King's yard, the Poor rates had been raised to 18s. in the pound. Sir James Graham observed, that the predecessors of the present Ministers had fixed upon 6,000 as the number to which the artificers in the various Dock-yards might be reduced. After having been three years in office, his Majesty's present Government had felt it their painful duty to make this, almost the last saving in the way of reduction, of which the naval department was capable; and had thought that the time had arrived when they might discharge 500 artificers, reducing the number from 6,500 to 6,000. It should be considered, however, that the sum saved, namely 37,000l. was spread over the whole of his Majesty's Dock-yards. That it fell more heavily on Portsmouth Dock-yard than on any other was owing to the circumstance that almost as many labourers were employed in that yard as in any other two yards in the kingdom. He was happy to confirm the statement of the hon. member for Portsmouth, that his Majesty's Government were of opinion, that the employment of convicts in the Dock-yards might and ought to cease, both with reference to political and as Vote agreed to. Sir James Graham said, that he wished to call the attention of the Committee to this vote, the decision of which would, in fact, involve the question what should be the future outlay of the Breakwater at Plymouth. The late Sir John Rennie had recommended that the work should be finished with solid masonry; that recommendation was adopted by his son, and the Admiralty, after having obtained every possible information on the matter, supported the recommendation. The last winter had afforded a severe trial of the efficiency of the work, and he was happy to say, that the result was perfectly satisfactory. He had received a letter upon the subject, and should beg leave to read a few lines to the House. The writer stated, that although it had blown a hurricane during the past week, such as had never been equalled since the disastrous gale of November, 1824, all the vessels in the Sound had ridden it out in safety, and the work itself had suffered very little damage. Only a few stones had been thrown over to the Northern side. All that part of it which had been finished in solid masonry was left uninjured, and the few stones which had been swept off were removed from that part which had not been so finished. He wished only to add now, that to the immortal honour of Sir John Rennie, the sum required for the works would fall short of the estimate he had sent in. That estimate amounted to 1,200,000l., but the expense amounted only to 1,100,000%. Mr. Hume thought, that if the work was to be finished, the sooner it was finished the better; for that would be sounder economy than leaving it uncompleted for a long period. If it could be finished better with solid masonry than in any other manner, he should not oppose its being so finished; but he thought it should be done without further delay. He wished to know on what principle it was, that Deptford Dock-yard was to be put down, and new Dock-yards at Sheerness and Pembroke were to be built? He did not understand this mode of proceeding. Sheerness was at a considerable distance from the metropolis, and in an exposed place, and he wished to know why the public money was to be expended in the erection of a Dock-yard there? when additional officers were required for the active service of the Navy. Captain D. Dundas was surprised at the remark just made by the hon. member for Middlesex. In his opinion, the recommendation of the hon. Member was anything but judicious; and there was no one, he was sure, in that House, who had the slightest acquaintance with the naval service, who would not be ready to testify to the fact, that sufficient justice was not done to the naval service. There were many officers of the navy who had served thirty and forty years, who had not above 3s. 6d. a-day, and he referred to the case of the pursers as one in point. Admiral Codrington said, this was a subject to which he had paid great attention, and he must say, that the most rank injustice was dealt out to all classes of half-pay officers in the navy. There was no other class in the country so badly provided for. The allowance which was given to pursers was a disgrace to the country. They were a body of men who filled most arduous situations, and were sometimes necessarily intrusted with the most important secrets; yet the allowance, after thirty years' service, was only 3s. a Sir James Graham said, that if the question was now for the first time to be discussed, whether or not there should be a Dock-yard at Sheerness, he might pos-day. With regard to the treatment of sibly be found to agree with the hon. member opposite; but as 2,000,0001. had already been spent upon this work, and as the money now required to finish it was comparatively small, he recommended that it should be finished, in order to prevent the utter wasting of so great an outlay. As to Pembroke Dock-yard, he thought that a most fit place to select for such a purpose; for the depth of water was considerable, and the wages were low, and there were many things that rendered it a proper place for the building of ships. By having these two Dock-yards, he should be able to do what he had long wished, to know exactly the comparative expense of building and of repairing ships, because the two sorts of works, and consequently the two sorts of accounts, would be kept perfectly distinct. Vote agreed to. On the Question, that 871,8581. be granted for the half-pay of the Royal Navy and Marines, Mr. Hume objected, on the ground that gross extravagance was committed in that department of the public service in consequence of no care being taken to place persons enjoying half-pay upon full pay VOL. XVII. Third Series S other retired officers of the navy, it was scandalous; and he could adduce instances of service and sufferings that were remunerated by stipends which would not be offered by any gentleman to his servants. He knew one instance of a person who had received several dangerous wounds, amongst which was the loss of an eye, and the allowance for all those sufferings was only 6d. a-day. One person who had served under himself at Navarino lost an eye there, and his remuneration was 21. The fact was, there appeared to be a systematic attempt to put down the navy. If there were any such intention, he thought it but right that all other pensions, as well as those of the navy, should be abolished. He would mention several other instances in which injustice was done to the navy. There had been several petitions presented from men who served at Navarino, and who lost every rag of their clothes in that action, but they received no remuneration or gratuity. There was one general petition in their behalf, forwarded to Sir John Gore, who, by order of his present Majesty, then Lord High Admiral, presented it to the Admiralty, and strange to say, when he inquired for that petition, F Now, the senior Purser of the navy had been made in 1777, and received no more than 5s. a-day; the senior Purser made in 1799, received but 4s. a-day; and other Pursers made in 1808, received but 3s. aday. These were inconsistencies disgraceful to the country, and which ever way he turned, he found the navy always dealt more harshly by than any other service. on his return from the Mediterranean, it | He did not see why officers who had no was not to be found. It had never been employment at home should be prevented heard of at the Treasury, nor was it to be from entering foreign service, and learning found at the Admiralty. He could not avoid their trade as shoemakers, as other persons saying, that there appeared to have been a were allowed to do. Instead of injuring determination to inflict every injustice on all the British navy, it would greatly benefit those who had served at Navarino. When it. He was glad that the convicts were at he came to make a comparison between last to be removed from the dock-yards, the pensions granted to officers of the for respectable men felt themselves denavy, and those granted to other persons, graded in being obliged to work in comthe injustice done to the navy was still pany with such characters. He could not more manifest. He saw by the Pension conclude without drawing a comparison List, that 500l. a-year was given to Mr. between the pay of Commissaries of the Thomas N. Holmes, a young gentleman, army, and Pursers in the navy. A Comwith whose services to the State no man missary-general received 17. 9s. 3d. per was acquainted, whilst the oldest Captains diem, a Deputy Commissary-general rein the navy had not more than 250l. a-ceived 14s. 8d., an Assistant Commissaryyear as a retired allowance. Sir Benjamin general 7s. 4d., and the Deputy Assistant Hallowell was an officer of the most dis- Commissary-general 4s. 11d. per diem. tinguished merit, who served under Nelson, and he now received 7507. ayear, whilst a retired Secretary received a pension of 2,000l. a-year. He would go through the list of such discrepancies were it not that that he should tire the House. He remembered that when the navy used to be paid in Bank-notes, a ship would be ordered off immediately the men received the money, perhaps to Gib- Mr. O'Dwyer also objected to the raltar, where the one-pound note passed system upon which the navy was governed, for only 14s., and thus the seamen were and could say, from his own knowledge, most shamefully defrauded of one-third that the complaints of the gallant Admiral of their pay. He had himself received were well founded. He was sorry to see his quarterly bills on foreign stations in an indisposition in the Government to redollars reckoned at more than 9s. each,lieve the country of the half-pay paid to whilst at the same time the army was paid in dollars taken at only 4s. and a fraction. In every point the navy had been treated in a manner disgraceful to the country. There was another hardship with respect to widows' pensions. Officers were made to contribute 3d. in the pound out of their pay towards the Widows' Pension Fund, whilst their widows were refused all benefit from the fund unless they could swear to their possessing no other property. He complained likewise, that where such men as boatswains had served meritoriously afloat, and were afterwards employed in the dock-yards, the two services were not allowed to be taken conjointly in order to make out a period which would entitle them to a pension. He conceived that the Foreign Enlistment Bill was a great injustice to the navy, for why should not seamen and officers be allowed to employ their professional skill, or pursue their avocation where they pleased, and for those who were willing to reward them? officers who had rendered no services, and performed no duties whatever. Promotion was given entirely to young men of aristocratic families. Sir James Graham would challenge the closest investigation into the promotions of the navy, since he had had the honour of being placed at the head of the department. He decidedly agreed with the gallant Admiral, that promotions must be held out as a stimulus to the profession, and that they were at once the cheapest and most honourable mode of procuring and rewarding services. Government, however, was placed between a cross-fire, for, whilst the hon. member for Middlesex attacked it for want of economy, another party assailed it for carrying economy too far, in withholding promotions and rewards from the naval service. He would say, that so far from the Admiralty having any objection to naval officers entering the merchant service, the fact of a person having so served would rather be con He must assure the gallant Admiral, the sidered as a claim to attention and favour. | convict. It was also an objection, that when one Magistrate had to discharge the duties of the office, he could not be expected to give night attendance, and this would give additional power to the police Inspectors, under whose authority innocent persons might be incarcerated for the night. He felt this was an objection to the proposed arrangement, but, upon reflection, he did not think that it could lead to much practical inconvenience, for he understood that, in the City of London the attendance of the Magistrates at night was dispensed with without any inconvenience or complaint. The present Bill also introduced some regulations for oyster-shops selling soda and ginger-beer, which were put under the same regulations as beer-houses with respect to the hours of opening and closing. He should only detain the House to add, that as the Metropolitan Police Act was nearly expired, he hoped that no unnecessary delay would be thrown in the way of the present measure. Any suggestions for its improvement it would be his duty to attend to when the measure was in Committee. The House resumed. POLICE OFFICES (LONDON).] Mr. Lamb, in moving the second reading of the Bill, stated, that its principle object was to consolidate former Acts relating to the Metropolitan Police. There were some alterations, however, introduced into this measure, which it was his duty shortly to advert to. In the new arrangement which was proposed, economy was an object of much consideration, and, with a view to diminish expense, it was thought that one of the Metropolitan Police-offices might be got rid of. It was supposed that the Whitechapel-office could be spared with the least inconvenience, and therefore a clause had been introduced into the Bill for doing away with that office. He understood, however, that the abolition of the office had excited some discontent amongst persons residing in that part of the metropolis, and as his Majesty's Government had no other object but to render the police establishment as efficient as possible at the least possible expense, if it was felt that the abolition of the Whitechapel-office would produce any serious public inconvenience, he had no disposition to press it. It was proposed to have one Magistrate at each of the Police-offices, but in effecting that arrangement some difficulties had presented themselves. In the first place, it was found that in some cases it was necessary, under Acts of Parliament, that convictions should be made by two Magistrates. Upon looking into the law, however, he found that the principle had been so little attended to, that he could see no objection to the introduction of a clause empowering one Police Magistrate to Mr. Hawes was glad to see, that the design of the Bill was to introduce economy into the police system. He would not object to the second reading of the Bill if the hon. Member would consent to have Committee appointed to consider the institution of the police generally. Mr. Lamb had no objection to have a Committee appointed, but he thought that, as its inquiries would take up a long time, it would be better to defer it for the present Session. At any rate, he hoped that the present Bill would be suffered to pass before the Committee was appointed. Mr. Hawes would trust entirely to the hon. Member's promise of having a Committee appointed to inquire into the subject, and hoped that some fresh measures of police would be founded on the Report made by that Committee. He would not, therefore, oppose the second reading of the present Bill. Mr. George Frederick Young wished to know if the Lambeth-street Office was to remain or not? If it was not, he had a few observations to make in opposition to the present Bill. Mr. Lamb said, whether that office was to be dispensed with or not, would be determined afterwards. |