Mr. Herbert Curteis feared the proposed and then determine on the reduction to arrangement would prejudice the land- be made: and if any other plan were owner, and that the way in which the re-adopted, he feared it would be open to the mission of tithes was to be made would charge of spoliation, which had already prove alike unequal and unjust. He been advanced against the proposers of the thought that it would be most advisable to alteration. So far as the present posallow clergymen, wherever it could be sessors were concerned, the charge of ineffected, to commute their tithe for land. justice to them would be got rid of, inasmuch as they were not to be disturbed. But the hon. member for Middlesex objected to the valuators being appointed by the Sessions. That was a subject the Government had considered; but thinking it by no means desirable to leave the appointment to Grand Juries, they had suggested the other mode as the preferable one. It was not intended that the tithe rent should vary otherwise than as it might, in common with all other incomes, be affected by the value of money; and it was proposed that the prices of grain, by which it was to be regulated, should be settled every ten years, and that the average of the year immediately preceding should regulate its amount. Some hon. Gentlemen thought there would be difficulty in commuting a part and leaving a part uncommuted. This was not the fact, as the system of partial commutation existed at the present time. It could, he was satisfied, occasion no inconvenience whatever. Although he did not intend to object to the partial commutation of tithe for land, he could not believe that it would be desirable to place in the hands of the clergy land to any extent. He had now answered all the observations that had been made, and he must say that the reception the measure had met with had given him unfeigned satisfaction. The difficulties with which it was pregnant could be discussed more at length when they entered upon the details; but he trusted that the result would be a measure which would do injustice to no man, and be extremely beneficial to a large class of his Majesty's subjects. Leave given to bring in the Bill. Lord Althorp, in reply, said, that the heads of the Church had certainly been communicated with upon the subject of this measure, but that he was not authorised to say whether it was their intention to give it their consent or to oppose it. His Majesty's Government felt, that they should not be justified in bringing forward such a measure without first communicating with the Bishops; but although that course had been taken, he was bound to observe that the Bishops were not in a situation to pronounce any opinion upon it, as it affected the beneficed and parochial clergy rather than them. The hon. member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume) had spoken of the propriety of equalizing tithes; but, however desirable the equalization of tithes might be, the bon. Member ought to have recollected, that it was an object which could not be accomplished without very great difficulty. The attention of the Government had been applied to this and to other Reforms in the Church, but, at present, they were unable to determine on the exact course they should pursue, or to give any pledge as to what should or should not be done. He admitted that there was great difficulty in the mode of collecting tithes, and fixing the amount to be remitted and he had therefore stated, that he intended to allow the valuators to enhance or lower the value during the last seven years, from five to ten per cent, as one mode of meeting that difficulty, but without of course, intending to say that his suggestion would obviate it altogether. But the subject was one fraught with so much difficulty, look at it how you would, that it would be presumption to hope that any measure of this description could be brought forward which would not be open to many and serious objections. To deal with the matter at all, the advantages and objections must be weighed one against the other, and the way in which the valuation was intended to be made was, he believed, likely to produce less dissatisfaction than any other that had hitherto suggested itself to his mind. The advisable course was first to make the valuation, PAYMENT OF OFFICES.] Mr. Hume said, that in rising to submit to the House the motion of which he had given notice relative to sinecure offices, or offices executed by deputy, in naval, military, civil, or colonial service, he was anxious to guard himself against being misunderstood, or having a wrong interpretation put upon the motives by which he was actuated. He had, in the early part of the present Session, introduced two motions for the abolition of offices to which no duties were attached, and he had I sincerely hoped and trusted that they had done so with a view to save the country now arrived at a period when this oppresthe amount of the salaries attached to these sive system of sinecures would be altogether offices. Objections had been taken to the done away with. The first schedule he manner in which he had introduced both found was the Court of Chancery, where his first and second motions. By some hon. sinecures existed to the amount of 20,9851. Members it was urged that he had not suf- per annum. In the next he found that in ficiently explained his meaning or objects; the Court of King's Bench, the Court of while others stated, that, however justified Common Pleas, the Court of Exchequer, he might be on principle, he had not chosen and the Prerogative Court, there were sithe proper time for proposing the reduction. necures to the amount of 106,616l. There He was not aware that he had committed were other sinecures in the Courts of Law any error, either in the one case or the in England, amounting to 50,000l., and in other, although it might perhaps have hap- the different colonies and colonial departpened that he had not made himself so ments, amounting together to 156,000l. clearly understood as he was anxious to do In short the Committee were so sensible on both occasions. The motion to which that they must meet the public eye, that he was now anxious to call the attention of they came to a resolution which he would the House was one founded on a broader read, but he must first observe that they basis than either of his former ones, and had pointed out altogether sinecures in his Majesty's Ministers might, as they England and the colonies to the amount pleased, admit or deny its propriety; in of 199,1371.; exclusive of 30,000l. in either case he would leave the result to be Scotland, and 74,000l. for Ireland, of judged by the country. He had received which, sinecures to the amount of a sum several communications from persons in of 31,000l. were in Courts of Law. different districts in the country, to whom A motion had been made last year with their respective Representatives had assigned a view to show the amount of sinethe grounds upon which they had voted cures and sinecure places existing in against him on both the occasions alluded this country. That motion had not been to; and he felt bound to add that the consti- carried as it would have shown the extratuency almost universally regretted that vagant amount to which those sinecures their Representatives had not taken a right had extended. He therefore, wished the view of the question. It was not his in- House to understand that in introducing tention to detain the House by going back this Motion he was actuated more by prinat any length into what had taken place at ciple in the abolition of sinecures than in former periods, but he would observe that the actual amount of their reduction, alwhen, in 1808 and 1809, the House was though he felt that that reduction would pressed to lessen the expenses of the country, be productive of great good to the country; a Finance Committee was appointed to in- and if he was able to satisfy the House quire how far the burthens under which the that no portion of the public money ought people laboured could be reduced. That to be given where no service was performed Committee was composed, for the greater for it, then, he trusted, that he should have part, of officers belonging to Government, made out a case that, in a time of pressure and after a laborious and extended inquiry, like the present, with our large debt and they came to a decision that a reduction heavy burthen of taxation, with the weight ought to take place with respect to persons of our army, naval, and civil establishments whom they divided into three classes: pressing upon us, we ought to be relieved 1, persons holding actual sinecures; 2, from all superfluous and unnecessary expersons holding offices in the nature of si-penditure. It should be known that while necures; and 3, persons holding offices which were executed by deputy, and where, though there was some work to be done, it was not of a nature or extent to warrant the salary. That Committee afforded the best account of sinecures and sinecure offices that had been laid before the House. In the following year it published an amended report (that of 1809) to which he would refer hon. Members, in order to see how those sinecures had been arranged. He the people were anxious to pay so far as they were able, and under every privation, all that was required for the service of the State, they had a right to expect to be delivered from the pressure caused by those who received large sums of the public money without performing any single act of service for it. The House would, perhaps, feel astonished if he were to state that the amount of sinecures and pensions within a comparatively short period had been the means of adding at least one-half had received 68,000l.; a Mr. King, the present amount of the national debt. 39,000l. According to his calculations, Taking the amount of sinecures and pen- these seven persons had received no less sions themselves, and looking to the manner than 1,620,000l. of the public money, from in which, by corruption and corrupt influence, the period of their appointment to those they had been the means of perpetuating offices down to 1816, and yet this formed abuses, and supporting extravagant and ex- but a small part of the sinecure places and pensive Governments, it would be found pensions which existed in the country, that former Ministers had maintained their and this sum represented but a small influence, and increased the debt by means part of what was paid for no services of sinecures, at least to the amount he had whatever. The Committee of the 13th mentioned. Thus it was, that laws were of June, 1809, agreed to a resolution passed by which the people were oppressed, to the following effect:-"That it is and their pockets drained of their last shil- the opinion of this Committee that sineling. He was aware that many hon. cure offices, and offices the duties of which Members might question his statement, are discharged by deputy, are unnecessary and inquire the grounds upon which it was and inexpedient as a means of rewarding made. He would quote a parliamentary public services." And, be it observed, that document, laid upon the table of the House this was the opinion of a Committee conin 1816; but, independent of that, the sisting, for the greater part, of Government House must perceive that if all the money officers and their supporters. A Motion, expended in useless places and pensions-founded upon the report of that Committee, in short, if every unnecessary shilling laid out since the time of William 3rd, had been placed at compound interest, the amount would go near to paying off the national debt. By the parliamentary document, published on the 3rd of April, 1816, signed Henry Goulburn, it appeared that there were thirty-three places in eight of our islands, the holders of which were nonresident, and discharged the duties by deputy, the salaries of which amounted to 53,000l. a-year. As a specimen he would mention the case of an honourable Mr. Percy W. Wyndham, who had held a situation in Jamaica of 4,000l. a-year (filled by deputy), from the year 1763; so that, counting up to 1816, he held it fifty-three years. He had during that long period been a receiver of the public money; he had received with interest 238,500l. of the public money, while every one of the duties attached to his office was executed by deputy. Another person holding an office in the same island, was the honourable T. C. Wyndham, who had received 34,000l. of the public money; so that these two Wyndhams had pocketted no less than 272,000l. of the people's money for doing nothing. Lord Braybrook held the situation, which he executed by deputy, of Provost Martial in Jamaica, and received for it 2,100l. a-year. He was quite a child when he received the appointment. Sir Edward Nepean had held a place in the same island, from which he had received altogether the sum of 169,000l. Mr. Charles Greville had also received a large sum from a sinecure place abroad. A Mr. Augustus Sullivan was submitted by Mr. Davies Gilbert Giddy, which was negatived; and since that period the question had never been fairly brought under the consideration of the House. The only defence that he had heard set up in favour of those sinecure places was, that his Majesty ought to have it in his power to reward the services of persons who had deserved well of their country by long and meritorious exertions. From this it would appear as if those places were paid at once out of the Exchequer; but such was not the case. The fact was, that most of those emoluments were raised in the most objectionable manner. They were, in a great measure, raised out of fees and exactions which clogged the wheels of justice, and to which suitors in our Courts ought never to have been subjected. He would mention a few of those persons who profited by those fees, and he begged the attention of the House to them for a moment. In one schedule he found an office which he understood was to be abolished-it was that of Auditor of Land Revenue (Sir W. G. Cooper), 3,300l.; then there was the auditorship held by Lord Grenville, with a salary of 4,000l. Then there was the office of the Teller of the Exchequer, with regard to which he could not let the opportunity pass without observing, that there was an individual who had, on one occasion, stood forward to meet the call of the country; Lord Camden had resigned fees which he then received, to the amount of 23,1157. a-year. Where was the justification for any of these sinecure offices? Every device had been employed to establish offices of this kind, and to impose fees, so that those who had influence enough to get the offices created might enjoy the emoluments. In 1782 the Court fees had been regulated; but, he believed, fees to the amount of nearly 300,000l. remained; and if those fees had been abolished forthwith, what an amazing saving would have been made to the country. He had always desired to put an end to the existence of these fees, and he thought it was a reproach to any liberal Government that the country should now be paying 33,000l. in the army Estimates for paying our own money to our own troops. The objection was not the loss of the money alone, but the delay that was needlessly occasioned many days were lost in attendance at offices to pay public money, and pass public accounts. In the Court of Chancery here there were several useless offices. There was one office held by Lord Bathurst, who received 1,610l. a-year; the Clerk of the Patents received 900l. a-year; the Clerk of the Pipe 9681. a-year. Then there was the Clerk of the Idiots- if there was such an office in the House of Commons, to punish them for allowing such a system, it would not be very objectionable-there was a Clerk of Idiots, an office held by Lord Thurlow, who received 9631.; and then there was the Secretary to the Bankruptcy office, who received 5,720l. a-year, an office also held by Lord Thurlow. Again, in the Chancery offices, there was an office held by Mr. Buller, who received, in fees, 7931. a-year; there were twenty-one Cursitors, all of whom performed their duties by deputy, and who received 6,4047. a-year; the Clerk of the Hanaper, an office held by two young ladies, the daughters of a noble Earl, who received 2,070l. a-year; the Messenger of the Great Seal, who received 9947.; and then there was Lord Ellenborough, the Chief Clerk of the Court of King's Bench, who received 7,905l.; then the office of Custos Brevium was held by Lord Kenyon, who received 4,986l.; and the officer of the Seal-office in the Common Pleas (the Duke of Grafton) received 2,2861. Now, the question for consideration was, whether the country was to continue to be oppressed and borne down by the payment of these and other enormous sinecures ? The time would soon come when, upon an explanation of the finances and resources of the country, they would be called upon to reduce the number of poor industrious persons employed under Government-were they, he would ask, at the same time to continue this list of idle, and useless, and expensive pensioners? But he had not yet got through his list. The Chancery in Scotland was in a similar state. The Earl of Rosslyn held an office there, and received 1,7127. a-year; there was the Clerk of the Chancery, who held the office as trustee for the children of the noble Earl, and who received 9251; there was the Comptroller of Customs (Lord Leven), receiving 4051.; there was a Sir S. Grant, holding an office which brought him in 6087. a-year; Lord Frederick Campbell received 1,200l. a-year; and Lord Melville, as keeper of the Privy Seal, had 2,000l. a-year. Surely it was time that these matters were inquired into. He was of opinion that such a wasteful expenditure ought not to be tolerated one moment longer, and that at a time of such dreadful distress and suffering, not a shilling of the public money ought to be unnecessarily expended. One of the Resolutions of which he had given notice was, "That on all future vacancies of sinecure offices, or offices executed by deputy, in the naval, military, civil, and colonial service of the country, no new appointments shall be made, nor any salary, allowances, or emoluments granted." What he intended by this was to save the salary attached to useless offices; but where offices were of an honourable nature he had no objection that the office itself should remain, as was the case with the office of Admiral of Scotland, the salary of which had been abolished, but the right was preserved to the Crown of filling up the situation. A suggestion had however been made to him that it would be better to make his Motion more general, and to leave out the words "naval and military." He intended, therefore, to put it in this shape "That on all future vacancies of sinecure offices, at home and abroad, no new appointment shall be made," &c. His second Resolution was, "that no person shall receive any salary, fee, or emolument for any office to which he shall hereafter be appointed, the duties of which are or shall be executed by deputy." The principle of that Resolution was adopted by the House, in 1822, as to the Receivers-General and their deputies, and a saving of 170,000l. ayear was effected. He therefore wished that the principle then acted upon should be applied to all offices, and that the public should pay no more for the discharge of the duties than their deputies were capable of doing them for.-The hon. Gen tleman concluded by moving his first Resolution. He thought there was one point which had been overlooked by both parties, and that was, an Act of Parliament (the 22nd Geo. 3rd, c. 75), by which it was intended to prevent the future grant of any patent offices for any longer time than they should discharge the duties thereof in person. The preamble of the Act was this:Whereas, the practice of granting offices in America and the West Indies, to persons resident and intending to reside in Great Britain (in consequence whereof such offices are exercised by deputy, and have frequently been farmed out to the best bidder), hath been long complained of as a grievance by his Majesty's loyal thereby exposed to exactions and oppres'sions, as well as to inconveniences arising from neglect of duty; may it please your Majesty that it be enacted-And be it enacted by the King's most excellent Ma'jesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and 'Commons in this present Parliament as Lord Althorp said, that with respect to the substance of the Motion of the hon. Member, he had no objection to it. The principle indeed had not only been recognised in that House, but acted upon in a great many instances. Indeed in saying this, he must take the opportunity of observing, that several of the offices men-in his Majesty's colonies and plantations tioned by the hon. Member as indicated in the Report made in 1816, had been entirely abolished since that time. He could not at this moment follow the hon. Member through all the instances to which he had referred, but he would mention one or two. He was surprised at the reference to the office held by Lord Thurlow in the Bank-subjects in those parts, who have been ruptcy-office, for in the Bill of the year before last it had been abolished. It was nearly the same with the case of one of the offices quoted from the Courts in Scotland, the office said to be held by Lord F. Campbell. That nobleman had been dead for a great number of years. He hoped, therefore, that the House would not think that all the offices referred to by the hon.sembled, and by the authority of the Member yet remained in existence. Some same, that, from henceforth, no office few indeed remained, but most of those to be exercised in any colony or plantawere to be abolished at the death of the tion, now or at any time hereafter, belongpresent holders. As to the second Resolu- ing to the Crown of Great Britain, shall tion which the hon. Member had read, if 'be granted or grantable by patent, for it were confined to civil and colonial offices, any longer time than during such time he would make no objection to it; and, as as the grantee thereof, or person appointed his noble friend behind him (Lord Ebring- thereto, shall discharge the duty thereof ton) had given notice of a motion for a in person, and behave well therein.' In Committee to inquire into military offices, the Act there was this clause: And be the hon. Member had perhaps better not it further enacted, by the authority aforeinclude them in his Motion, the more espe- said, that if any person or persons holding cially as he believed that the Committee 'such office shall be wilfully absent from would not be opposed by the Government. 'the colony or plantation wherein the same He should, indeed, suggest to his noble is or ought to be exercised, without a friend to add Naval Offices to those re-reasonable cause to be allowed by the specting which he was about to move for a Committee of Inquiry. Mr. Hume said, that as the noble Lord had treated his proposition so very fairly, he should certainly adopt the suggestion now made of omitting naval and military officers from his Motion. The Motion was then amended thus"That in all future vacancies of sinecure offices in the Civil and Colonial Service of the country, no new appointment shall be made with any salary, fee, or emolument thereto attached." Colonel Davies observed, that the very fair manner in which the noble Lord had met this Motion would tend most powerfully to restore and increase the confidence of the country in the present Government. ( ، 'Governor and Council, for the time being, ' of such colony or plantation, or shall neg'lect the duty of such office, or otherwise 'misbehave therein, it shall and may be lawful for such Governor and Council to amove such person or persons from every or any such office; and in case any person or persons so amoved shall think himself aggrieved thereby, it shall and may be ' lawful to and for such person or persons 'to appeal therefrom, as in other cases of appeal, from such colony or plantation; whereon such a motion shall be finally judged of and determined by his Majesty in Council.' If such were the law, how happened it that so many persons were allowed to hold sinecure offices in the colonies without residence? How happened 6 |