Colonel Wood said, a great part of the evils complained of arose from the application of the Vagrancy Act to casual poor in the metropolis and other places. The parishes, in order to relieve themselves from the expense of passing them, described them as vagrants, and thus saddled the counties with the expense. The short remedy would be to make the parishes remove their own Irish and Scotch paupers, and that the natives of the three divisions of the kingdom should be placed on the same footing.

England, that great consideration was due | Much had been talked about a superabundto those Irishmen who came to England ant population in Ireland, but he was prein search of food. The hon. Gentleman pared to show, that instead of an increase (Mr. R. Palmer), seemed to suppose, that there had been in many places, a considerthe burthen of passing Irish paupers fell able diminution in the population of that principally upon the counties and agricul- country. Like the negroes of the West tural interest. He verily believed, that Indies, the Irish people had decreased in more of the burthen fell on the single point of number, and although this was parish of Kensington, containing 14,000 an unpalatable doctrine, it was nevertheless persons, than on the whole county of Berks. the true one. Ireland was capable of mainThat was not the case of Lancashire, a taining a population of 19,000,000; but manufacturing county, which paid more until the proprietors of the soil were identhan the seven other counties through tified with the country, it would be hopewhich the road to Liverpool passes. In less to look forward to anything like real that county the towns of Manchester and prosperity. In the time of Edward 3rd Salford paid more than the whole county an ordinance was issued, prohibiting perof Bedford. The towns he believed bore sons from holding land in England and the principal part of the burthen. also in France; and without some such law was adopted with respect to Ireland, there was no possibility of escaping from the evils of absenteeism and non-residence. He should propose that English proprietors should give their Irish possessions to their younger sons, or have the option of selling them; and although he admitted the difficulties in the way of such an arrangement to be almost insuperable, still he saw no other way of rescuing Ireland from the thraldom and misery in which it was placed. It had been said, that the introduction of Poor-laws would afford employment to the Irish poor, but this he denied. Poor laws might, to be sure, give them food, but it was his opinion that such a system would not only render them idle, but take away from them the means of labour. No less a sum than 8,000,900l. was annually expended for the support of the poor in this country. The Government, including all persons paid out of the public purse, from the King on the Throne down to the lowest constable, only cost 16,000,000l. so that a sum equal to half the amount of the whole public expenditure was lavished upon the poor without either, as far as he could see, bettering their condition, increasing their comforts, or promoting their happiness. But the expedient of Poor-laws for Ireland might lead to a species of litigation between the countries which was little dreamed of. Suppose, for instance, an action was brought by an English parish against an Irish parish, in an Irish court of law, what was likely to be the result? The agents and counsel on both sides would no doubt be benefited; but what would the proceedings cost the parishes? Why it might so turn out, that the transmission of a single pauper would cost more in law expenses than would be sufficient to support 2 L

Lord Duncannon said, it was a great hardship to send the Irish poor over to a country where they had no means of relief but by begging their way through their own country or returning to this. He agreed with the hon. member for Oldham, that great consideration ought to be given to the peculiar circumstances of Ireland.

Mr. O'Connell said, that so long as the Parliament of this country oppressed Ireland as they had done, so long must the people of Ireland hate and detest it; and certainly no Parliament that had ever existed in England was deserving of more indignation and hatred on the part of Ireland than the present, which had done so much against and so little for that unfortunate country. Until justice instead of injustice was done to Ireland, the account between the two countries could not be settled; and unless something was done to ameliorate the condition of the Irish people, the Government might rest satisfied that Ireland would never be other than a source of daily embarrassment to them. In England the population had increased, between 1821 and 1831, at the rate of fifteen per cent, while in Ireland the increase for the same period did not exceed eight per cent. VOL. XVII. {s}

Third

1

exaggeration in the value of these revenues, Lord Duncannon said, it had occurred there was evidently a foundation for exten-to him that the House would prefer having sive and beneficial inquiry. When the the question referred to a Committee in 'noble Lord, the other night, had a difficulty the first instance, but if a Commission were to find five or six millions which were cut then found necessary, his Majesty's Gofrom under his feet by the partial repeal of vernment would not object to it. The the Malt-tax, and by the menaced repeal of hon. member for Colchester had stated, the House and Window Duties, he might that large sums had come into the Treasury have found in the Crown lands an ample of the Woods and Forests, from 1826 to fund for meeting the chasm in his resources. 1830, which had not yet been brought to He would only have had to go with the the public account. The hon. Gentleman Act of Parliament in his hand into the must be aware that a heavy debt had been Money Market, and he might have raised contracted under the authority of Parliafive or six millions on this property. There ment, which must be paid before the money was another advantage to which this pro- could be made available for other purposes. perty was applicable; why not create ten He believed the whole amount was or fifteen millions of notes, to be called 1,500,000l. Last year a sum of 250,000l. Crown-land notes, to be received and paid was paid towards it, and in the present in taxes, but not to be convertible into gold year another 100,000l. would be appropriat all? The noble Lord was about to ated to the purpose. With regard to the appoint a Committee. He would not find expense of collection the hon. Gentleman that sufficient. Such a Committee would was misinformed, for it did not exceed half have to send individuals to make inquiries the sum which he had stated. in every county in England, and in many counties in Ireland, and to call witnesses before them from all quarters, which it would be impossible to do without great delay and serious expense. He had no doubt that it would be found more expedient to appoint Commissions to go into every county, and find out all about this property. In the year 1786, several Commissions of this nature, composed of three or five persons each, were appointed, and made some most valuable and important reports. If those reports had been followed up, instead of the Crown property having been misapplied, it would now be worth double its present amount. What he suggested, therefore, was, the appointment of a Commission. He had paid a great deal of attention to the subject, and he was satisfied that the Crown lands might be judiciously, though gradually, converted into a sum of money that would not fall short of fifteen millions. He suggested as the best mode of facilitating the disposal of this property, that half the purchase money should remain on mortgage, at two and a half per cent. It was important entirely to get rid of the establishment attached to this property, and to the expense of the collection of its revenues, which amounted to twenty per cent. He had no doubt, if the subject were followed up as it ought, the property might be made one of our most useful resources in time of need.

Mr. Hume was glad that the subject was to be inquired into, and hoped it would be extended to Ireland and Scotland.

Mr. Cobbett thought, that the Commissioners of Woods and Forests had done very wrong in wasting all this property in beautifying streets, and building houses and fine palaces in the metropolis. Of all the mistakes ever fallen into by the Government, none was greater than that of expending large sums of money on this particular spot. Instead of accumulating and adding to the crowd of idlers in London, it ought to be the object of Government to diminish the attractions of the spot. As it was, however, something was taken away from every part of the country, in order to enlarge London. The building of the Penitentiary was a most unwise measure. It cost a million of money, and a number of persons were brought up to London to assist in its erection. What he rose, however, to observe was, that as soon as possible, efforts should be made to recover Crown property which had unjustly got into other hands, in order to enable the Treasury to take off some of the taxes. The hon. member for Colchester valued the property at 15,000,000l. He (Mr. Cobbett) was more sanguine. He had known a trifle paid for a very valuable estate. Now, they all knew that when a steward had unjustly disposed of his master's property for a small consideration the landlord's remedy was in the Court of Chancery. In the case of the Crown lands the country should have its Court of Chancery-namely, that House. The leases, fines, and all other circumstances ought to be strictly inquired into, and if

hon. Member imputed to Government three motives for establishing Savings Banks, he might have smiled, but certainly it was not on account of the originality of the hon. Member's ideas, because he had heard something like the same topic urged some nights ago. He was, indeed, quite astonished to hear such arguments coming from the mouths of hon. Members. So far from being an injury to the people, he believed these banks conferred on them the greatest advantages; and, so far from affording the Government the means of trampling on the people, and scourging the people, as the hon. Member expressed it, they had the very contrary effect. Their evident effect was, to render the people independent; and, surely, persons of that description were not the most likely to be trampled on.

it were found that Crown property had | parts, which could not be taken into account been sold or let for less than its value, the in every money transaction. When the agreement ought to be cancelled by Parliament. Fraudulent contracts ought not to be permitted to endure. He was born on the borders of a royal forest; and he well remembered, when he was young, that it was full of fine and lofty timber. Many thousands of acres of trees were, however, struck down, lopped, barked, and then disposed of; and it was not improbable that Government had been treated on that occasion as Lord Peterborough had been treated by his steward, who knocked down his house, sold the materials, and then brought in his Lordship a bill for repairs. There had been enough wood cut down in that forest of Holt to have supplied the Royal Navy for several years. He hoped that the hon. member for Colchester would be a member of the proposed Committee, and that the Committee would go into the consideration of the subject honestly, without any respect to persons, and with a determination that the public should have justice done them.

The Motion for an Address in answer to the Message agreed to, and a Select Committee subsequently appointed.

SAVINGS BANKS ANNUITIES' BILL.] Lord Althorp rose to defer the third reading of this Bill until to-morrow, not being completely prepared to announce all the alterations that might be desirable in it.

Mr. Thomas Attwood expressed his disapprobation of these Savings' Banks. He believed they were instituted by the late Lord Liverpool and the Government at the time, not for the good of the people, but for three different purposes. The first was to draw capital to London, in order to bolster up the funds; the second was, to give the Government the power of putting their hands into the pockets of the people; and the third, to enable them to scourge the people. ["Oh! Oh!"] Hon. Members might express disapprobation as much as they pleased, and the noble Lord might laugh, but his firm belief was, that the great object of Lord Liverpool in this transaction was to get a claw on the people.

Lord Althorp was astonished that the hon. Member, in addition to these three charges, had not made another, and imputed to Government the introduction of the Savings Banks Bill, because they wished to realize profit by means of the fractional

Mr. Shaw could not help expressing his astonishment at the expression made use of by the hon. member for Birmingham. The hon. Member, he believed, had the kindest intentions towards the poor; but he must say, he took the strangest way of showing those intentions by prejudicing the people against disposing of the little spare money they had in a way which was most likely to render them independent and comfortable. He was opposed to the Poorlaws; the hon. Member he believed was in favour of them, and he would just leave it to himself to say which of the two systems were the most likely to cherish independence.

Mr. Slaney thought, that nothing showed more the good sense and proper feeling of the lower classes than the preference they gave to Government Securities over country bankers. The hon. Member had probably heard the story of Franklin about the two sacks. The empty sack, he said, fell to the ground, but the full sack stood upright. Surely the more property the people had, the more likely were they to be independent. He was happy to find that, though during the crisis of last Session the amount of deposits had diminished, they were now daily increasing.

The third reading of the Bill deferred.

SHERIFFS EXPENSES.] Mr. Fysche Palmer moved that the Sheriffs' Bill be read a second time.

The Solicitor General said, that, he was decidedly opposed to the plan of throwing the expenses of the office of Sheriff upon

the county rates. There was now an un-custom and the expense had continued. derstanding between the Sheriffs and Parliament might, now that the necessity Under-sheriffs, the latter of whom agreed for their existence had ceased, very proto bear the expense; and there were fees perly interfere to abolish them. Though of office which enabled them to do so. he did not exactly approve of the Bill The expense might always be limited, at itself, as it was now framed, he thought the pleasure of the person who held the that the hon. Member who had introduced office, and it would be hard to make the it deserved great credit for having brought farmer and the occupier pay expenses before the House a subject of much abuse. incurred at the discretion of an individual. Sir Edward Knatchbull perfectly agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman, and hoped that the Bill would be withdrawn. Mr. Cobbett said, that if the expense amounted to 600l. now, it would amount to 6,000l. if the charges were paid out of the county rate. It was an office of honour, and should continue to be so.

Mr. Richard Potter trusted, that no expense would be thrown upon the counties connected with the office of Sheriff, and if Gentlemen of suitable fortune were appointed, there could be no necessity whatever for so doing. He agreed with several hon. Members that respectable attorneys in some counties were anxious to undertake the office of Deputy, and free the High Sheriff from all charge. In the county he was connected with (Lancashire), it was well known that, on a gentleman being appointed to the honourable and ancient office of Sheriff, there were always numbers of most respectable solicitors eager to become the Sheriff's Deputy, and free him from all expense whatever. In ordinary times the gain to the Under Sheriff was generally about 1,000l. He entirely agreed with the hon. member for Oldham, that if the expense was to be paid by the counties, instead of its costing 600l. or 700l., the charge in time upon the counties would be as many thousands.

Mr. Fysche Palmer had not brought in the Bill upon his own responsibility, but at the recommendation of a Committee previously appointed to examine into the subject. Many of the abuses now relating to the nomination of Sheriffs would be done away by the bill, and on the whole he thought it would be a benefit to country gentlemen.

Bill read a second time.

HOUSE OF LORDS,
Wednesday, May 8, 1833.

MINUTES.] Bill.

Read a second time. On the Motion of Lord AUCKLAND:-Personal Estates; Cotton Wool Duty Repeal.

Petitions presented. By the Earls of LICHFIELD, and ALEE

MARLE; and by Lord SUFFIELD, from a great Number of Places, against Slavery.-By Lord DUNDAS, from Falkirk, for an Alteration in the present System of Church Patronage (Scotland).-By Lord COLVILLE, from Irvine, for a Better Observance of the Sabbath.-By Lord SurFIELD, from a Baptist Congregation in the City of London, for an Improved System of Registration, and for Relief from the other Grievances under which Dissenters labour. -By the Marquess of CAMDEN, from the Clergy of Canterbury, against the proposed Measure of Church Reform in Ireland.

MINUTES.] Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. PEN DARVES, an Account of all the Copper and Tin Imported into, and Exported from the United Kingdom, in 1832.On the Motion of Mr. BALFOUR, an Account of the Sums remaining unpaid in Ireland for additional Duties on Spirits under 1st William 4th, cap. 49, on the 5th April, 1832, and on the 5th January, 1855; the same for Scotland. On the Motion of Captain ELLIOT, a Copy of a Letter of the 4th of May, 1833, from the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital to the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty: also an Account of the Quantities of Copper Sheets and Bolts respectively rolled in his Majesty's Dockyards of Woolwich and Portsmouth, in 1850, 1831, and 1832; the same of Iron; and an Account of the Aggregate Expense incurred by the managing of the Estates in Cumberland, Durham, and Northumberland, belonging to Greenwich Hospital.

Mr. Strickland said, in the county which he represented, the expenses of the Sheriff were never less than 1,500l., and very frequently amounted to 2,000l., which was a very serious expense to fall suddenly upon any gentleman. He did not say, that these expenses were necessary, but they were customary, and had so long been customary that it was impossible to avoid them. The javelin-men, who had been so frequently mentioned, were in ancient times a sort of military body absolutely necessary to escort the Judges through every county: because, in early periods, Petitions presented. By Lord JOHN RUSSELL, from Brixham,

the entrance of the Judges into a county town was often attended with considerable danger. That danger, by the progress of civilization, had passed away; but the

Bills. Read a third time :-Dramatic Authors; Savings
Banks Annuities. Read a second time :-Dwelling House
Robbery; Privy Council. Committed:-Law Amend-

ments.

for an Improvement in the Highways Bill.-By Sir OSWALD MOSLEY, by Sir W. INGILBY, by Sir G. GREY, by Sir T. LENNARD, by Sir WATKIN WYNN, by Sir FRANCIS VINCENT, by Sir CHARLES BURRELL, by Lord JOHN RUSSELL, by Colonel GORE LANGTON, by Messrs.