had no intention of taking part in the discussion that evening; and his only reason for rising was, because he had considered the observations made as necessary to be answered. Mr. Goulburn was not opposed to the adoption of useful and necessary reforms in the Church Establishment; on the contrary, as one who venerated that Establishment, he desired to see it rendered as complete as possible; but he must resist the present Bill, which was calculated to retard the growth of the Protestant faith in Ireland, but did nothing towards the actual reform of abuses, or the promotion of the efficiency of the Church as an instrument for the extension of true religion. There was nothing in the Bill to enforce the residence of the clergy-no provision for the separation of large unions of parishes-in short, the measure did not tend to render the Church more efficient. Its grand feature was, that it abolished ten bishoprics, of which he would speak presently. He did not object to the removal of the Vestry-cess from the population at large, but he thought that, in professing to remove a grievance, the noble Lord left behind abundant grounds for dissatisfaction and agitation. There were two cesses raised in every parish in Ireland-the one by an exclusively Protestant vestry, the other by a mixed vestry of Protestants and Catholics. The objects of the first-named cess were limited by Act of Parliament to repairs of the Church and the performance of worship therein, but the general vestry had to deal with subjects no less inflammatory. Curates' salaries had been provided for in general vestries, but it was otherwise enacted by the present Bill. However, abundant subjects of dispute and irritation remained. The expenses of organists, singing, and all matters connected with the churchyard, were provided for in general vestries. Here was matter for agitation which the Bill had not removed. The Bill imposed an oppressive and iniquitous tax on one class of the community without attaining its avowed object. He did not wish the noble Lord to impose another tax on the clergy for the accomplishment of the objects at which he had glanced, but he said that when the noble Lord was getting rid of the Vestry-cess, he would have done better to have got rid of it altogether; and unless that were done, they would render the life of the Protestant clergy hardly safe. But the great objection which he had to the Bill was the manner in which it affected the interests of the Protestant Bishops, while it restricted the extension of the Protestant religion throughout Ireland. If this Bill should be carried, it would prove the greatest calamity which could be inflicted on the country. The noble Lord intended by this measure to abolish no less than ten out of the twentytwo Bishops in Ireland; and he would leave a number which was not sufficient to perform the duties of the Church. He would not question the right of the Crown to consolidate the bishoprics, but he would say that, if such a reduction as that proposed were carried into effect, the number of bishoprics would be restricted to a number which would fail to render them able to discharge those numerous duties which would devolve upon them. With respect to the number of Bishops, he could not suppose that all of them could always be ready to fulfil their functions, when he called to mind the common accidents of nature, the infirmities of age, or those many causes which must always tend to reduce the actual number of the persons appointed to these situations. In every, establishment there would be men promoted to high stations who, from a variety of circumstances, might not be calculated to advance the dignity of the Establishment. They could not therefore calculate always upon having the aid of twelve Bishops to conduct the ecclesiastical affairs of the Church in Ireland; and by the Bill, it foliowed, that of that number four would be required to perform their parliamentary duties, while four would be expected to remain in Dublin for the superintendence of spiritual affairs. Therefore, for five or six months of the year, no more than four Bishops could be expected to be engaged in the discharge of the episcopal duties. But supposing that all these Bishops were in the full vigour of youth, their number would be inadequate to the discharge of the duties of their situations. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken of the English bishoprics, and had particularly referred to the bishopric of Chester, as containing a great number of benefices; but he thought that, if a Reform were to be made in the English Church Establishment, that Reform should be to increase the number of bishoprics. He did not think it necessary to dwell at any length upon the great advantage which Ireland derived from the residence of the Bishops, who were resident gentry of the best description, and gave employment to the people. He had himself been in Ireland in the year 1822, when the country was visited by the double calamity of famine and of a frightful pestilence which raged through Ireland. He knew well what had been the exertions of those Bishops on that occasion, whose situations it was intended to abolish, and he witnessed more particularly the conduct of a Bishop in Galway. He had beheld with delight the efforts which had been made by the Archbishop of Tuam, not only in the capacity of a Protestant Bishop, but also in his character as a Protestant Gentleman. Only last year he had seen a Bishop, who, while Gentlemen on every side fled from their abodes in alarm, had given up his intention of sailing for England, and had returned to his residence for the purpose of administering comfort to the poor people in his diocese. It was the fashion to say that all preferment was given to the relations of the nobility, but this he denied in respect to the bishoprics. The Bishops rose to their distinctions from their superior talent and accomplishments to their contemporaries. He thought that in every point of view, whether in respect to the necessary ecclesiastical superintendence of the Bishops, or the benefit arising to the country from the residence of the Bishops in their dioceses (in which latter case he had only quoted one instance, though he knew manysimilar cases), the proposed reduction was carried beyond what could be beneficial to the country. The fact was, that this Bill appointed a commission to take care that religious duties should not be performed in Ireland; if service had not been performed for a certain time in a parish, the commissioners had power to prevent it ever being performed again. Now, in his opinion, they ought to do directly the contrary of that, and of a parish so long deserted, peculiar care should be taken of the religious culture. The diminishing the power of the Church of Ireland, to effect the spread of Protestantism in that country, which would follow from this measure, would not be compensated for, he feared, by the exertions of the voluntarily paid ministers of Dissenting congregations, judging from the manner in which such exertions were treated by his Majesty's Government. It was but very recently that two Dissenting ministers in Ireland, who endeavoured to address the people there, with a view to disseminate amongst them the truths of the Protestant religion, drew down upon their heads the reprobation of the Government for their conduct. Instead of suspending the appointment of a minister in parishes where, through the negligence of former ministers, duty had not been performed for some years, they should appropriate the revenues which they would derive from the Bishops' lands to the filling up of all vacant livings, and thus endeavour to promote the spread of Protestantism in that country. He was firmly convinced that the happiness and prosperity of Ireland mainly depended upon the spread of the true reformed Protestant faith in that country, and he was convinced that if its blessings were more widely disseminated there, instead of crimes and outrages, peace, virtue, and good-will, the never-failing effects, as experience had shown, of the efforts of Protestant ministers to establish the true faith, would universally prevail. For his part, he did not see what advantages the people of Ireland would obtain by the passing of this Bill. He did not believe that, in a pecuniary point of view, the lower orders of the Irish people would derive any benefit from it, because an increase in the rents would no doubt take place, so as more than to make up for the burden, if any, from which this measure went to relieve them. In fact, instead of seeing in this measure any tendency to diminish the evils of Ireland, he was of opinion that several of the clauses of it would go greatly to aggravate them. This measure went to lessen the Bishops in Ireland, and to diminish the number of the clergy there, while it went to transfer their property to the hands of lay commissioners, who would have no fellow-feeling with the people. If they passed this measure they would condemn many parts of Ireland to the misfortune of never seeing a Protestant Bishop, and of never being solaced and instructed in the true religion by a Protestant pastor. Mr. Hume said, that he should have been extremely glad to have heard the speech just made by the right hon. Gentleman delivered by him when he sat on the other side of the House, and he should have been equally glad to have heard the right hon. Gentleman suggest those Reforms which he now suggested, and ad mitted to be necessary, at a time that he | Member's pardon, the hon. member for had the power of carrying them into effect. Yorkshire (Mr. Duncombe) did not apBut far other was the game of the right pear, judging from his vociferous "No," hon. Gentleman when he sat on the Trea- to coincide in that sentiment. The hon. sury benches. He recollected the day Member did not seem to agree with him when the right hon. Gentleman had the as to the expediency of putting an end to power of carrying these Reforms into the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. effect, and when he would not do so; he Now, he would assert, and re-assert, that recollected the day when the attention of that was the only and the true way of pacithe right hon. Gentleman was called-but fying Ireland [No, no]. The hon. Members was called in vain-to the non-residence about him might cry "No, no" to that of clergymen, and to the other crying statement, but just let them try the matter abuses that existed in the Church Estab- by the test of experience. What did the lishment of Ireland. All those abuses hon. and learned member for the city of seemed then to be forgotten by the right Dublin tell them a short time ago? That hon. Gentleman, and he had only re- they had been for a century and a half covered his sight so as to perceive the trying by every means in their power to misgovernment and mismanagement of spread Protestantism in Ireland; but that, the Irish Church, at the same time that instead of succeeding, the Protestant he had been removed from his seat upon Church there had fallen off day by day, the opposite benches. He would do the and instead of increasing the number of right hon. Gentleman the justice to say Protestants, had been gradually on the that he had always expressed an anxious decrease, so much so, that in many desire that clergymen should be resident, parishes in Ireland there was not a single but what was the use of expressing such Protestant to be found. Would not a an opinion if the right hon. Gentleman trial of a century and upwards satisfy did not use the means for carrying it into them of the fruitlessness of the effort, and effect? [Mr. Goulburn: I did use them; were they to commence a Quixotic cruI brought in a Bill for the purpose]. He sade of another century in seeking such was told by the right hon. Gentleman an unattainable end? He trusted that the that he brought in a Bill for the purpose, House would have the good sense to scout but why had not that Bill produced the such ridiculous schemes. What he wished, desired effect, after having been so many on this occasion, to impress upon the years in operation? The right hon. Gen- noble Lord and the right hon. Secretary tleman told them that he considered the opposite was, that it would be better for support and maintenance of the Protes- them to take a more decided course on tant Established Church in Ireland as the this subject. From what had happened only means of securing the peace of that that night, they must see that this meacountry, and yet the right hon. Gentleman sure would not give satisfaction either to had hitherto done nothing for the spread the Catholics or to the high Protestants; of Protestantism in Ireland but by voting and he would tell them, further, that this money for other purposes. What was the measure would give satisfaction to nobody. remedy which he now proposed? After He did not blame this measure on the Protestantism had had a trial of a century same account that those gentlemen around and upwards in Ireland, and had failed him who now cried "Hear, hear," did. He in making progress there, the right hon. did not blame it because it cut down ten Gentleman proposed that churches should Bishops; no, but he blamed it because it be built, and that the number of Protes- did not cut down twenty-two Bishops in tant clergymen should be increased, evi- Ireland. He thought that one Bishop dently for the purpose of forcing Protes- ought to answer all the purposes for tantism down the throats of the people of which Bishops were really wanted in Irethat country. He (Mr. Hume) was anxi- land. The right hon. Gentleman oppoous to state to the House what he be- site had stated to them instances of lieved to be the real truth-namely, that Bishops presiding over from thirty-five to they never should have peace in Ireland sixty benefices, and he had referred to the until the Protestant Establishment there excellent example of the Bishop of Chester, was put down [No, no]. The hon. who had in his diocess no less than 1,200 member for Berkshire did not seem to benefices. Now, there were only 1,286 livagree in that opinion; he begged the hon.ings in Ireland altogether, and therefore it would be only with the slight addition of | Member had alluded; his observations some sixty or eighty benefices, to make could apply to nothing else. Would any one Bishop, as the Bishop of Chester did man say, that in England the Church of in this country, preside over them, and Ireland was not considered as a sinecure attend to the affairs of a church of 600,000 church. ["No, no!"] Hon. Gentlemen or 700,000 persons, for that, he believed, near him said "No" to that, but it was not comprised the whole number of the Pro- to them that he appealed,-he appealed to testants of the Established Church in Ire- the people. Let them take ninety-nine out of land. He thought that one Bishop would every 100 of the people of England and be amply sufficient to do that duty. The Scotland, and they would find that they Act of Union did not contemplate the ne- would say that the Church of Ireland was a cessity of having more than four Bishops sinecure church, and that it produced enorin Ireland, as it called only that number mous evils, which ought to be redressed. to Parliament; and on a former occasion, In fact, the only question was, how, withwhen he (Mr. Hume) was more liberal to- out shaking the institutions of the counwards the Church, he had proposed that try, the nuisance, as it existed, could be four Bishops should be retained in Ire- abated? As this measure would neither land. He now, however, thought that one satisfy the Catholics nor the high church would be sufficient. They should consider party, his Majesty's Ministers should for what purposes the Protestant Church seek to satisfy the people. There was too was established in Ireland. It was not much good sense in the country to run for the purpose of maintaining a parcel of wrong for any length of time. Let them idle clergymen it was not for the purpose see the day-they never would see itof producing eternal bickerings and con- when public opinion would change to the tests amongst the people-it was for the side of those hon. Gentlemen who now so purpose of promoting religion good-will, loudly cheered him, and then he would and peace. Did it do so? Had it not, admit, but not till then, that those hon. on the contrary, tended to promote any- Gentlemen were right. Public opinion thing but such desirable results? He had set in strongly against the maintenwould therefore say, that the Church es- ance of abuses in church establishments, tablishment of Ireland had been the bane and let the conflict be only continued for of that unfortunate country; that all the some time longer, and they would bring abominations in the shape of countless the English Church into the same discredit abuses connected with it had produced and disrepute that the Irish Church at preresults the very reverse of those for effect- sent monopolized to itself. The fault he ing which a Church should be established; had to find with this measure was, that his and he now called upon them to give an Majesty's Ministers did not go far enough honest verdict, and put down the nuisance. to meet the wishes of the country. He The hon. and learned member for the would not object to it, however. University of Dublin had told them, for- would be glad to take it now, hoping that sooth, that Church property was not pub- it would lead to those results to which he lic property. Why, that doctrine was now looked forward hereafter. He must say so completely exploded that even some of that the greatest enemy to the Established the Bishops themselves had given up the Church in the country, without knowing it, point. There was no doubt that it was was the hon. and learned member for the public property, to be dealt with as Par- University of Dublin, who altogether deliament might think fit. ["No, no!"] Henied the necessity of Reform and the exwould only say to those hon. Members about him who cried "No," that they differed from several of the Bishops, who had acknowledged that principle. He would repeat, that the property of the Church was public property, for all purposes to which Parliament might wish to appropriate it. The hon. and learned member for the Dublin University talked of the monster that was carrying every thing before it. He knew no monster existing save public opinion. It was to nothing else the hon. and learned He istence of the most notorious abuses. They were the real friends of the Establishment who endeavoured in some measure to remedy its monstrous abuses. In no parish in Ireland should a Protestant clergyman be left who had no duties to perform and no flock to attend to. He trusted that ere long the noble Lord opposite, should he retain the situation he now occupied, would see the necessity of extending the Reform in the Irish Church. The doing so would be the best mode of promoting the real interests of that establishment. I station in society might mix with the It was plain that, unless the Catholics were upper classes, communicate religious inrelieved from every contribution for the struction to them, while, at the same time, support of the Protestant Church in Ire- they mixed with them in equal and amiland, there never would be peace in that cable intercourse, being separated from country. He believed it was the intention them only by the absence of the follies of the noble Lord to relieve them by this and vices incident to wealth. He did not measure; and if such was his intention, think, however, that the efficiency of the nothing would more tend to produce peace Church depended on the number of its and satisfaction in Ireland. He would dignitaries. The number, if greater than have the Church lands in Ireland sold out necessity required, seemed rather a source and out. That was the way to promote of injury by exciting complaint than of the prosperity of Ireland. Let the funds increased benefit. The member for the arising from their sale be applied as Par- University of Dublin spoke of the numliament should think fit. They might de- ber of acres each Prelate in Ireland had pend upon it that the establishment of a to attend to besides his other duties. The set of Commissioners, with this and that proper business of a Bishop was not to meapower, would never attain the result that sure acres, but to devote himself to the the sale of the Church lands, as he recom- spiritual concerns of the people. So far mended, would produce towards establish- as he comprehended the Bill under consiing the prosperity of Ireland. He should deration, he did not think the proposed support this Reform; he would go as far union of bishoprics in Ireland would throw as the noble Lord, and he wished he had upon the Prelates any additional duties gone further, and if the noble Lord would which they would not be adequate to disnot go further, he hoped somebody else charge. He had been in the habit of would. accompanying his relative (the Archbishop Mr. Granville Harcourt Vernon said, of York) for many years in the discharge no man was less disposed than he was to of his duties through a very extensive decry public opinion. The laugh was di-diocese, and he believed there was no rected rather against the monstrous opinion ground for saying that these duties were of the member for Middlesex than against not adequately discharged. In the diocese public opinion. He supported this Bill of Chester there were 1,200 parishes, and under many painful impressions arising in that of York 1,000, with a population from his connexion with an individual of 3,000,000. He heard of no comdignitary of the Church, from his official plaints made that the duties of the bishop situation, and from other considerations. were inadequately performed in either He supported this Bill, because he was diocese. These duties were some of them satisfied that it would render the Estab- very heavy, such as the consecration of lished Church of Ireland more stable, more churches and confirmations. In large effective, and more respected. As the towns it was not uncommon to see as state of the Church in Ireland did not seem many as 5,000 children confirmed at one to suit with public opinion in that country, time. There were, however, various other the natural conclusion was, that there must duties, the weight of which depended on be something in it which required revision the number of parishes, the number of and correction. The member for Middle-communications to be attended to, and sex seemed to him to aim at nothing less the amount of the population. It would than the total destruction of that Church.not appear that, in any point of view, the This sentiment was natural enough in a North Britain; but he confessed, that he entertained strong predilections in favour of that Church and its hierarchy. He considered the institution of Church dig-to any other but ecclesiastical purposes, nitaries as of the greatest benefit to society; and on general principles he contended that the current of morality must descend from the higher classes to the lower. The advantage of prelacy was this, that by such an institution they had a class of men who by their education and Third VOL. XVII. {s} proposed unions in Ireland would impose more labour than a single Prelate might be capable of performing. He did not think it would be proper to apply the funds nor was it proposed by this Bill to do so. The only thing contemplated was a different mode of application, and the great object to be effected was the extension of morality and religion. He should be content with the Bill if the words "ecclesiastical purposes" were introduced, and 2 P |