His agitate the question now, when it excited | take measures to check the growth of the no interest? That was the very period population. He looked upon these as for discussing it, for there would be much identical propositions. But how was the danger in discussing the question-and stimulus to cultivation to be produced? none of their Lordships could say, that It was undeniable, that it was by enhantime might not arrive when corn was at cing the price of corn. To ensure a certain 90s. or 100s. per quarter. Their Lordships price, they laid restrictions on importation, might depend on it, if the question were and the consequence of that was-and he discussed, under national excitement, they begged their Lordships' pardon, for the would not come to a wise and prudent term he was about to use-was to cause determination, or settle the question as it a modified scarcity of corn. He said, a ought to be. He was afraid he must offer modified scarcity of corn; for if that were some excuse to their Lordships for some not caused, the price would not rise. If of the terms he might use, and he would that were not the operation of the Act, not use them if he could express his why did they not throw open the ports? ideas by other words. Let him then ask It was impossible not to see, that the means their Lordships what was the object of the by which the ulterior object of cultivating Corn-laws? [A Noble Lord: To pro- the country was obtained, was of raising mote the cultivation of the land, and feed the price of corn, and causing a modified the people.] He understood his noble scarcity. Those who entertained that friend. His noble friend said, to procure opinion took an erroneous view of the the cultivation of the country, and that causes of increased cultitivation. The the people might be fed. He wished also next point he came to was, how had the to see the people fed; but had their Corn-laws operated? There was not one Lordships examined the Bill under this of their Lordships who did not know, that aspect? Had their Lordships examined the period between 1815 and 1833 was the various papers laid on the Table of not one of prosperity to the various interthat and the other House of Parliament? ests connected with agriculture. The object of the Corn-laws was to secure noble friend near him (Lord Western) for the country an independent supply of assented to the remark that this period had food. Had their Lordships looked at the been one of suffering. During that period quantity of corn imported last year, and they had had the exclusive Corn-law of at the quantity imported every year since 1815. The object of that law was, to imthe Bill was passed? The noble Earl pose restrictions on the importation, and (Earl Malmesbury) had moved for a raise the price higher than in other parts of series of papers, not to show that we Europe. In that law two classes were were independent of foreign countries, interested the agricultural or farming but to show the immense quantity im- interest, and the consumers. How had ported from abroad, and that the farmers the law operated for the farmers? With and landlords were ruined by the import- respect to the law of 1815, it was one of ation; in fact the country was not inde- the most signal instances of failure to be pendent of foreign supply. It might found in the history of legislation. That law have been independent at the beginning was passed by a great majority of the other or middle of the last century; but with a House, and in their Lordships' House it metropolis containing 1,300,000 persons, had passed without any opposition. and with a country covered with vast was therefore the joint effort of both cities, it was impossible, that this country Houses of Parliament. Their Lordships should ever again be independent of a would, however, recollect, that in 1821 foreign supply of corn. That being the and 1822, they were alternately assailed fact, the only object of consideration was, by the agriculturists and manufacturers on what conditions and terms corn should complaining, the one of privations, and the be imported. Let it be remembered, that other that corn was too cheap. Their it could be excluded only by checking the Lordships would recollect, that in the increase of the population. If they pro- winter of 1821-22, wheat fell below 40s. hibited the importation of corn they the quarter, though the law said, that must check the growth of population. there should be no importation till the In order, then, to promote the cultivation price rose to 80s. By that law the farmers of the country, and make it worth while were deluded to believe, that 80s., as was for the occupiers to till the soil, they must promised by legal enactments, would be It agitate the question now, when it excited no interest? That was the very period for discussing it, for there would be much danger in discussing the question-and none of their Lordships could say, that time might not arrive-when corn was at 90s. or 100s. per quarter. Their Lordships might depend on it, if the question were discussed, under national excitement, they would not come to a wise and prudent determination, or settle the question as it ought to be. He was afraid he must offer some excuse to their Lordships for some of the terms he might use, and he would not use them if he could express his ideas by other words. Let him then ask their Lordships what was the object of the Corn-laws? [A Noble Lord: To promote the cultivation of the land, and feed the people.] He understood his noble friend. His noble friend said, to procure the cultivation of the country, and that the people might be fed. He wished also to see the people fed; but had their Lordships examined the Bill under this aspect? Had their Lordships examined the various papers laid on the Table of that and the other House of Parliament? The object of the Corn-laws was to secure for the country an independent supply of food. Had their Lordships looked at the quantity of corn imported last year, and at the quantity imported every year since the Bill was passed? The noble Earl (Earl Malmesbury) had moved for a series of papers, not to show that we were independent of foreign countries, but to show the immense quantity imported from abroad, and that the farmers and landlords were ruined by the importation; in fact the country was not independent of foreign supply. It might have been independent at the beginning or middle of the last century; but with a metropolis containing 1,300,000 persons, and with a country covered with vast cities, it was impossible, that this country should ever again be independent of a foreign supply of corn. That being the fact, the only object of consideration was, on what conditions and terms corn should be imported. Let it be remembered, that it could be excluded only by checking the increase of the population. If they prohibited the importation of corn they must check the growth of population. In order, then, to promote the cultivation of the country, and make it worth while for the occupiers to till the soil, they must take measures to check the growth of the population. He looked upon these as identical propositions. But how was the stimulus to cultivation to be produced? It was undeniable, that it was by enhancing the price of corn. To ensure a certain price, they laid restrictions on importation, and the consequence of that was-and he begged their Lordships' pardon, for the term he was about to use-was to cause a modified scarcity of corn. He said, a modified scarcity of corn; for if that were not caused, the price would not rise. If that were not the operation of the Act, why did they not throw open the ports? It was impossible not to see, that the means by which the ulterior object of cultivating the country was obtained, was of raising the price of corn, and causing a modified scarcity. Those who entertained that opinion took an erroneous view of the causes of increased cultitivation. The next point he came to was, how had the Corn-laws operated? There was not one of their Lordships who did not know, that the period between 1815 and 1833 was not one of prosperity to the various interests connected with agriculture. His noble friend near him (Lord Western) assented to the remark that this period had been one of suffering. During that period they had had the exclusive Corn-law of 1815. The object of that law was, to impose restrictions on the importation, and raise the price higher than in other parts of Europe. In that law two classes were interested the agricultural or farming interest, and the consumers. How had the law operated for the farmers? With respect to the law of 1815, it was one of the most signal instances of failure to be found in the history of legislation. That law was passed by a great majority of the other House, and in their Lordships' House it had passed without any opposition. It was therefore the joint effort of both Houses of Parliament. Their Lordships would, however, recollect, that in 1821 and 1822, they were alternately assailed by the agriculturists and manufacturers complaining, the one of privations, and the other that corn was too cheap. Their Lordships would recollect, that in the winter of 1821-22, wheat fell below 40s. the quarter, though the law said, that there should be no importation till the price rose to 80s. By that law the farmers were deluded to believe, that 80s., as was promised by legal enactments, would be - lected curates, though he would object to its amount, still he would subscribe to its principle. Had it even been proposed to remove a blot from the Protestant Church by compensating and doing away with the holding of pluralities, it would have found some favour in his eyes, but as it was, he protested against it, and conjured the Ministers not to persevere in making it part and parcel of their Bill; and he particularly called on the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies, whose talents no person could hold in higher estimation than he did, nor was there an individual in the House more inclined to give him credit for those kind feelings towards Ireland which, in his eloquent address to the House at the commencement of the Session he assured them he had always felt,-he called upon him, as a practical proof of his friendship, to abandon this obnoxious and oppressive provision. If Government would not adhere to the principle of their Bill, which professed to be for the advantage of the tenant, let them, at least, be just; should the measure, however, be proceeded in he did not fear the result. His confidence in that House must forbid his imagining that they would, in open disregard of the rights of property, in direct violation of justice, in a total abandonment of good feeling, sanction it, or call on Ireland,-wasted, impoverished Ireland, to furnish a subsidy of 3,000,000l. to the State. He would no longer detain the House; he had already trespassed on its patience too long; and he would but assure it, that he deeply felt and gratefully acknowledged the attention with which he had been honoured. An Hon. Member was understood to say, that the measure had his general support, but that he objected to part of it, because that part of it was inconsistent with the main principles of the Bill. The part he objected to was that which sanctioned an alienation of Church property; for, notwithstanding the denial of the righthon. Secretary for the Colonies, there was in the measure a sanction given to the alienation of Church property. Whilst he admitted the power of that House with respect to Church property, he thought that it should be especially applied to Church purposes. One of the purposes to which it ought to be applied, and for which it was originally destined, was education; and few countries more than Ireland required that education should be encouraged. It was the ignorance of the people of that country that gave so much hold to agitation; and no one could read the Report of the Irish Commissioners without being convinced, that the increase of crime in Ireland was owing to the ignorance of the people. Even the hon. member for Dublin would allow, that the crimes of a population were generally proportionate to their ignorance. Mr. O'Connell said, that he was not quite so sure of the ignorance of the people of Ireland. Whether ignorance did or did not prevail there, it was certain that it did to a very large extent elsewhere, and he seldom saw so many proofs of it as he did when he heard hop. Members talk about Ireland. He denied that the crimes of a country were in proportion to the ignorance of its population, and he was supported in his opinion by the authority of a late number of "The Edinburgh Review." He had seen it stated in a statistical calculation published in that journal, that there were more poor children enjoying the blessing of education in Ireland, than in that country so vaunted, and so favoured as to educationScotland. Besides, if the statistical accounts of crimes in the French departments, drawn up by the desire of the Government of that country, were consulted, the hon. Member who had last spoken would find that the progress of crime did not tally with the ignorance of the departments; for that the proportion of crime to the inhabitants was greater in those departments which were considered the most enlightened. With respect to the present measure, as he had said on a former occasion, it had his approbation; and he would now state why he approved of it no longer, lest he should be accused of inconsistency and of changing his sentiments without a sufficient reason. The fact was, that the noble Lord opposite had practised a delusion on him when he said that the Vestry-cess was to be entirely abolished. The noble Lord might have done so unwittingly, but the noble Lord must still be aware that he (Mr. O'Connell) spoke sincerely when he mentioned that he laboured under a delusion upon this point. The amount of the cess was stated to be between 60,000l. or 80,000l.; in the newspaper reports he saw it to be 69,000l. This was to be done away with; and when the noble Lord stated the yearly value of Bishops' property to be 700,000, were, Taking care of church £. s. d. 5 5 0 65 0 0 6 16 0 6 16 0 42 0 0 80 0 0 he (Mr. O'Connell) asked the noble Lord | Protestant, and let the House see the whether it was too much to expect that items of expenditure in St. Peter's. There the people of Ireland should be relieved of their burthens at the rate of about ten per cent upon that property? But it had been proved since the noble Lord spoke, that the relief, instead of amounting to 70,000,, would not amount to more than 10,000l. This was the reason why he changed his opinion with respect to the measure. He held in his hand some reNow all the expensive items he had turns of the amount of assessment on mentioned would still remain, though it several parishes in Dublin, some with ex- had been said that the cess was virtually clusively Protestant vestries, and others abolished. The cess, so far as it regarded to which he would refer for the purpose of the repairs of churches, was done away showing what charges would be abolished with, but it would still be levied for all by the operation of this measure. The other purposes. The present measure statute of 7 Geo. 4, c. 72, authorized would, by allowing assessments at any three heads of expenditure. First, ex-time of the year, only double that vexapenses relating to the building, rebuilding, tious tax. When he had expressed his repairing, or enlarging churches or chapels; secondly, the providing things necessary for the celebration of divine service therein, as authorized by letters canonical, or canon law; and thirdly, the providing a salary for the maintenance of any parish clerk or sexton. These were the heads of expenditure authorized by the Act. Now, the assessment dated the 11th of June, 1830, made on the parish of St. Ann's, Dublin, the Vestry being exclusively Protestant, contained the following items: £. 3. d. To Bread and wine for Communion 15 0 0 o 4 approval of the Bill, he had done so because he believed it would remove this most vexatious imposition; but, on examining the measure, he had found, that it neither repealed the act of Geo. 2, nor the 7th Geo. 4, nor any of those Acts by which this cess was levied; and, therefore, he retracted his opinion. He must state, that the people of Ireland cared little for the removal of ten of the Bishops, but only sought to escape the annoying payments which were thus levied upon them. The only feature of the Bill that he was able to approve of was, that it instituted a control by Parliament over Church property, and that, once admitted, it might lead to ulterior and highly important consequences. He complained that the law as it stood was most unjust, for if an appeal were made by a Catholic to the Court oo of King's Bench against the Vestry-cess, 0 o and the appeal were unsuccessful in form or substance, he was fined in triple costs, and if he were successful, he had to pay the costs of both sides. The Bill did not abolish tithes, nor lessen the burthens of the people of Ireland. With reference to o the livings to which the present Fellows of 0 0 Trinity College would be entitled to sucoceed, he hoped the Bill would not preju00 dice the interests of those Gentlemen therein, as having actually toiled in expectation of the vacancies, they might be said to have a vested right in them. 58 0 . 32 18 9 5 53 0 9 5 9 5 0 0 0 0 Then there was a charge for the salary of a curate, for performing morning service, 1501. And then came £. s. Reverend George Blacker (another) 150 0 Vestry clerk, one year's salary Assistance to sexton Beadle Engine keeper's salary Paying engines attending fires in the parish Providing for deserted children Donations to the poor Taking care of churchyard 23 0 23 24 0 d. Lord Althorp said, that the hon. and 21 0 o learned member for Dublin had contended, 0 that the Vestry-cess in Ireland would not Obe abolished by the Bill introduced by Now St. Peter's was not exclusively the Government. He (Lord A.) could 6 0 45 O |