ing time for its discussion and modification if necessary. It must be acknowledged that the question of emancipation of slaves stood upon new grounds from the moment it was proposed to Parliament by Government. He did not infer from what had that it may be, that a servile war is inevitable; but Sir, if we grant to the negroes, all that they have a right to ask, and they still break out into rebellion, we shall have, in the melancholy necessity of shedding their blood, the consolation of knowing that this necessity, has not been occasioned by a de-occurred that there was any indifference on nial of justice. But if the struggle arises from an attempt to force them to submit to the exaction of unrequited labour, shall we not again be in the situation, of which the American war is the only other example in our history, in which no friend to justice and humanity can wish well to the arms of his country? Sir, I trust the House will not be induced to adopt a course which may lead to so dreadful a result, and that we shall at once proceed to restore to the negroes the full enjoyment of their rights as men. the part of the right hon. Gentleman to the unspeakable importance of this subject, or to the necessity of allowing time for its discussion; but, at the same time, he hoped that his Majesty's Ministers would not ask a vote or single decision upon any of the Resolutions until further time were allowed for considering the subject in all its details. Whilst he asked for a postponement, he did not wish for an indefinite one, but that a convenient day should be fixed for resuming this discussion. Lord Althorp would remind the House that his right hon. friend had, in opening the debate, stated his readiness to agree to the postponement of the debate, if it were the wish of the House, or of any hon. Member who wished to take a part in the discussion. It was reasonable, not only on account of Members but on account of the public, who took a deep interest in this subject, that a postponement should be required and he was therefore willing to accede. Perhaps the best way would be to report the Resolutions, pro forma; and by that means there would be an opportunity Such a course, I am convinced for the reasons I have stated, is in every point of view the most expedient, and attended with the smallest danger. I do not pretend that it is safe, but as being less dangerous than any other, I most earnestly recommend it; and even, Sir, were the balance of danger less decidedly in its favour, believing that it is alone consistent with the eternal rules of right and wrong, and with the first principles of justice, I should be prepared to adopt it, committing the issue not without anxiety, but with humble confidence, to the disposal of an all-wise and over-afforded to print them. He could assure ruling Providence. Sir Robert Peel did not rise for the purpose of prolonging, or of even entering upon the discussion, as he thought it would be most inconvenient to do so at that stage of the debate and at so late an hour of the night; but he rose merely for the purpose of suggesting the necessity of coming to some understanding as to some practical course to be adopted with regard to the discussion of these Resolutions. Whilst he admitted the necessity of coming to an early decision on this important subject, he must at the same time deprecate a premature or hasty one. It was absolutely necessary that some further time should be given for the consideration of these Resolutions. The right hon. Gentleman had not confined himself to vague suggestions, but had actually suggested a specific plan for altering the condition of slaves; but that plan was so complicated, that it would be impossible to discuss its principle without going into its details. One thing he hoped, and it was this, that the House would not adopt even one of the Resolutions, without allow the House that he had not the least idea of taking an advantage of any hon. Member, but his wish was, that the Resolutions might be reported, with the understanding that no person was thereby pledged to vote for them. With respect to the day for renewing the discussion, he thought the most convenient time would be the first open day after the Whitsun holidays, which would be Thursday, the 30th of this month. Mr. Fowell Buxton did not think it fair that the speech of the right hon. Secretary should go forth to the world unanswered. It was true the noble Lord near him had replied to several points in that speech, but that which he thought a most important point still remained unexplained. If the negro were to be called upon to pay for his own liberation, he, for one, must oppose such a proposition. He, therefore, wished to know whether the negro was to pay for his own emancipation, or whether the 15,000,000l. to be raised in this country was to be applied to that purpose? Lord Althorp thought his right hon. friend had been sufficiently explicit when 15} the Emancipation of Slaves he stated, that the slave would be allowed time to raise the price of his own emancipation, but, at the same time, he had left it to the discretion of the House to say whether they would exact from the slaves the payment for that emancipation. Sir Robert Peel did not offer his suggestion to the House with any other view than that of allowing time for deliberation. The House would recollect that some of those Gentlemen who were interested for the planters had an opportunity of speaking and they had as much right to complain of delay as the hon. Gentleman opposite. Mr. Godson said, on the part of the West India planters, that they had no objection They had no to an immediate hearing. desire whatever for a postponement. Some of the merchants of London were, however, in a different situation. They had orders to execute for shipment of several millions' worth of British goods to the West Indies: but one of those Resolutions went to regulate the supply of certain articles which were to be used by negroes; and, until that clause was disposed of, the merchants could not, with safety, send out the usual shipments. Mr. Secretary Stanley could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that the Resolution to which he had referred would not in any way affect the interests of the merchants concerned in the trade to the West Indies. His object was, to give that body a full opportunity of disposing of their shipments, and he was sure that no resolution or clause would be adopted which would interfere with their interests. As to the discussion, he was prepared to enter upon it immediately, but he thought it fairer to allow all the parties interested in the issue of it, full time for inquiry and deliberation. Mr. Godson said, that although there were but a very few Members in the House who were connected with the colonies, they were willing to go on at once with the debate, and on their part he would say that delay or postponement could only have for its object the promulgation of such statements as had been made in the brilliant speech of the right hon. Secretary-statements which. though unfounded, would be thus circulated without an answer. Sir Robert Peel had only spoken for himself. And whatever opinions the hon. and learned Gentleman might entertain as to the effects of his suggestions, he must be allowed to say, that he had no other object and could have no other object, to obtain that attentive consideration of the subject which would be most satisfactory to all parties. Sir Richard Vyvyan said, the great inconvenience of delay was, that the statements of the right hon. Secretary would go forth uncontradicted, although he (Sir Richard Vyvyan) could easily give a satisfactory refutation to many of them, particularly to those misrepresentations respecting the Island of Jamaica. The Resolutions were reported to the House pro forma, and ordered to be printed and taken into consideration on the 30th of May. HOUSE OF LORDS, FITZWILLIAM, RADNOR, and AIRLIE, and Lords BEXMINUTES.] Petitions presented. By the Earls of CHICHESTER, LEY, SUFFIELD, and SEGRAVE, from a great Number of Places,-against Slavery.-By the Earl of AIRLIE, from the Provincial Synod of Angus and Mearns, from the Kirk Session of Dundee, and from Guthrie, for a Better System of Church Patronage in Scotland; and from the Provincial Synod of Angus and Mearns, for Church Reform in Ireland.-By Earl FITZWILLIAM, from three Places, against the Corn Laws.-By the Duke of RICHMOND, from Brighton, for the Abolition or Amendment of the Sale of Beer Act. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, May 15, 1833. MINUTES.] Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, Petitions presented. By Mr. SINCLAIR, from St. George's, Act.-By Major BEAUCLERK, from Wimbledon; and by CAYLEY, from Tadcaster, for the Repeal of the Malt Shipping interest.—By Mr. J. FIELDEN, from Blackburn, against the Irish Church Temporalities Bill.-By Mr. CAYLEY, and Sir B. W. GUISE, from several Places, --for a Repeal of the Malt Tax.-By Mr. SINCLAIR, from several Places in Scotland, for Amending the Existing System of Church Patronage in Scotland.-By Mr. O'CONNELL, from Balmerino, for Relief to Ireland; from the Saddlers of Dublin, and from Enniscorthy and Templeshannon, for a Repeal of the Union; from Strathmiglo, for the Abolition of the Church of Ireland as connected with the State; and from two Places, against Tithes and Church Cess: also from several Parishes in Dublin, and other Places; and by Mr. F. O'CONNOR, from Ballymoney, and Kenneigh,-against the Suppression of Disturbances (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. WYNN ELLIS, from a Dissenting Congregation, Liverpool; and by Colonel WILLIAMS, from the Dissenters of Ashton-under-Lyne, for Relief to the Dissenters, from their present Grievances.-By Mr. J. OSWALD, and Mr. DUNLOP, from the Handloom Weavers of several Places, for the Appointment of a Board Mr. J. OSWALD, from Perth and Galston, against the Corn SINCLAIR, from Armagh, for substituting a Solemn Affir mation for an Oath.-By Sir H. PARNELL, from the Coach Proprietors and Postmasters, on the Lines of Road between London, Worcester, &c., that the same Principle of Taxation may be applied to both Rail-roads and Common-roads; and from Dundee, for certain Alterations in the Law of Scotland.-By Mr. O'CONNELL, from Dublin; Mr. ROEBUCK, from Bath; Mr. SINCLAIR, from Brighton; and Mr. COLLIER, from Plymouth,-for granting to the Inhabitants of Corporate Towns the Right of Electing their own Municipal and Local Magistrates.-By Mr. FINCH, from Stamford; Mr. BRODIE, from Salisbury; and Mr. WIGNEY, from Brighton for the Repeal or Amendment of the Sale of Beer Act.-By Mr. ROEBUCK, Mr. O'CONNELL, and Sir W. MOLESWORTH, from several WHITMORE, PHILIPS, TODD, and HORNBY, from a great PETH, Lord G. BENTINCK, Sir R. INGLIS, Sir EARDLEY Vyvyan took the opportunity, upon, the face. An Mr. Hume rose to order. That was not the proper period to answer a debate which took place on a former occasion. The Speaker was of opinion, that the hon. Baronet was not strictly out of order. It was for him to consider how far the course he was pursuing promoted the convenience of the House. Sir Richard Vyvyan was merely anxious to negative allegations which had been brought against a most respectable body of men by the Secretary and Under-Secretary for the Colonies, and which ought not to be suffered to go forth to the public without a contradiction on the earliest opportu Sir W. GUISE, Colonel G. WILLIAMS, Messrs. A. JOHN-nity. The right hon. Secretary was misSTON, HOPE, WEYLAND, STRUTT, and SINCLAIR, from a Number of Places,-for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.-By Mr. OLIPHANT, from Perth, for Amending the Scotch Law of Bankruptcy.-By Mr. CLAY, from St. Paul's, Deptford, for Relief from the General Distress, and from the Expense of the Metropolitan Police.-By Mr. BANNERMAN, from Aberdeen, for a Revision of the Substituting a Solemn Affirmation for an Oath.-By Lord By Mr. HORNBY, from Warrington; Mr. CLAY, from against the Assessed Taxes.-By Sir R. INGLIS, from the Dean and Chapter of Ely, against the Church Temporalities (Ireland) Bill.—By Lord MORPETH, Mr. HORNBY, and Sir R. INGLIS, from several Places,-for Amending the Sale of Beer Act. ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.] Sir Richard informed with regard to the corporal pun- Lord Morpeth was not prepared to It gave every individual an opportunity of answer the observations of the hon. Baronet, expressing an opinion, and asking any quesbut he was well satisfied that his right tion he might think necessary, and which hon. friend would have no difficulty on the he must be prevented from doing on the subject, if he were present. The allegation occasion of a set debate, when the whole time made by his right hon. friend with respect was consumed by a few prepared speeches to the power of a master to inflict thirty-each three or four hours' long. The nine stripes on his slave, was, in fact, the statement of a West-India proprietor. ques tion he was anxious to put to the Government was, whether the scheme of emancipation was to go hand-in-hand with compensation; or whether emancipation was to be carried without compensation? And if it was not, he wished to know from what Mr. O'Connell said, that the knowledge of which he was possessed on the subject came from the evidence laid before both Houses of Parliament. The question in dispute seemed to be whether a West-quarter compensation was to come? He Indian slave master could inflict thirty-nine lashes on a negro for a certain offence, and the evidence of a West-India proprietor, and of other men, stated clearly that he could. An overseer could not only administer thirty-nine lashes for looking him in the face, he could do so without assigning any reason. That he could inflict corporal punishment either with or without assigning any reason had been proved upon authority which did not admit of a doubt. The fact was so revolting to every feeling of humanity, that the House would not be imbued with a particle of sympathy if a law were not immediately passed to render it impossible for one human being to strike another with impunity. Colonel Leith Hay was enabled to corroborate the assertions of the hon. Baronet by his own personal observation. The statements of the right hon. Secretary, he did not hesitate to say, were greatly exaggerated. The allegations were made upon evidence which the right hon. Gentleman believed to be true, but that evidence was of a most exaggerated description. He thought an ex parte statement, armed with the powerful eloquence of the right hon. Secretary, and the feeling that existed out of doors at the present moment on the subject of slavery, without any expression of the sentiments of the House upon the subject, ought not to be permitted to reach the public ear without the earliest contradiction. understood from the speech of a noble Lord, who had filled the office of Under-Secretary, until within a very short period, that he had spent two years in maturing a plan for the emancipation of the slaves, which differed in many important particulars from the scheme produced by the right hon. Secretary in a very short space of time; and he wished to know why the plans of that noble Lord were not submitted to the House as well as the Resolutions of the right hon. Secretary? Conversations of this description tended to elucidate facts much better than luminous and elaborate speeches, and he, therefore, regretted that no Minister was present to answer the inquiries of hon. Members; it was certainly a part of the original agreement between Ministers and the House. Mr. Petre said, that the statements which had gone forth were not in any degree exaggerated. The House and the country had heard repeatedly of worse instances than any which were last night mentioned by the right hon. Secretary, who had, indeed, shown great forbearance in not alluding to individual cases. The Conversation dropped. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS-SLIGO.] Mr. John Martin (of Sligo) presented a Petition from Sligo, complaining of certain abuses which existed in the Corporation. Colonel Perceval said, he trusted that he should be excused if he trespassed on the time of the House, while he showed that the petition which complained of the Sligo Corporation contained gross and calumnious falsehoods, as applied to a most estimable person; he meant his very respected friend, Mr. Wynne, who is a proprietor of certain tolls in the town, who is a constant resident in the country, and whose example he heartily wished other proprietors would The petition stated that this res Mr. Harvey said, that this meeting, for the purpose of presenting the petitions of the people, was worth nothing if a responsible Minister was not present to hear the complaints of the country. He very much regretted the absence of every Minister on the present occasion. It was disgraceful to any Ministry that the petitions should thus, day after day, be ludicrously consigned to the bag. He very much approved of follow. conversational debates of this description. pectable gentleman had appropriated a part (Mr. Martin), because he felt sure that the House would not refuse a hearing to any Gentleman who stood up in his place, to offer a justification of a highly respectable individual against the most unfounded calumnies. Mr. John Martin stated, in reply, that neither himself nor any person who signed the petition, intended to cast a reflection upon the character of Mr. Wynne. But did the hon. Member mean to say, that the borough had not been appropriated to his private purposes? Colonel Perceval asked, what private advantages was meant by the hon. Member? Mr. John Martin: Selling it. In fact, so little did some of the Representatives of that borough know of the place they represented, that one of them represented it in the House as " a little fishing villa in the south of Ireland." The hon. Member was proceeding to put another question to the hon. Member (Colonel Perceval) when Such Sir Robert Bateson rose to order. interrogatories were irregular; they ought at least to be put through the Chair. The petition was referred to the Com of the Corporation funds to his own personal | petition presented by the hon. Member use. Now, he would say, that this was an unfounded and gross mis-statement, for the fact was, that the tolls of the town were let to the highest bidder, and were not sufficient to pay the bailiffs and other officers in the conservation of the peace of the town; and his respected friend, as the proprietor of the principal part of the town, had paid 100l. a-year to the provost. It was too bad that these petitions should bring forward charges which were in no way founded in fact; and he would call on the hon. member for the town of Sligo, to state whether he had ever known an instance of any of the Corporation funds having been applied to the personal benefit of his very esteemed friend. The petition mixed up Corporation property with certain tolls, the right to which latter property had been purchased by Mr. Wynne. The Corporation had no more control over the tolls than they had over his (Colonel Perceval's) estate. He would ask why then should these tolls be brought forward as a Corporation abuse? As regarded the non-residence of the burgesses, the hon. Gentleman must be aware that by the Reform Bill freemen of towns are considered as residents, if they reside within seven miles of the place for which they vote. The Cor-mittee on Corporations. poration consisted of thirteen persons, eleven of whom were, under the Reform Bill, actually residents; and, therefore, it was not fair to say, that the burgesses were nonresident. It was further stated in the petition that the freemen were not elected to office in the mode which they ought to be. By the charter of the town it was provided, that these corporate offices should be elected by the burgesses, and until the charter were superseded, or the law altered; the manner of electing the officers of the Corporation must remain vested in the same parties. The petition alleged, moreover, that many influential persons had applied to be admitted to the freedom of the town, and had been refused the boon by the Corporation. He remembered the case of Mr. Abraham Martin, who applied to the provost and burgesses to be admitted to the freedom of the Corporation, and he knew that they thought proper to refuse him. Mr. Martin then brought the matter before the King's Bench, and the result was, his application was refused on the ground that the Corporation could not be compelled to accede to his demand. He had felt it his duty to trespass on the time of the House by dwelling at some length on the contents of the CASE OF BARON DE BODE.] Mr. Hill presented a Petition from the Baron de Bode, praying for an inquiry into his claim on the funds received by the British Government, under the convention, for the paying off British claimants. In support of the petition the hon. Member urged at considerable length the claims of the petitioner, on the ground that he was a Britishborn subject, and that the only defect of his claim was a mere technical one of nonregistration. He moved that it be referred to a Committee to examine and report upon the claims of the petitioner. The Attorney General opposed the Motion on the ground that the case had been already sufficiently heard and justly decided upon. The hon. and learned Gentleman was proceeding to address some further observations to the House on this subject, when he was interrupted by Sir John Tyrell, who said, that as the question was likely to lead to some debate, he thought it ought to be discussed in a fuller House. He moved that the House be counted. The House counted out. |