quantity of French, Cape, and other Wines in stock up to the 5th of January 1833." Lord Auckland said, he could have no possible objection to the Motion; on the contrary, he was very glad that it had been made. The result would show that the prediction of the noble Lord was not verified in the way he apprehended. He had a prediction to oppose to that of the noble Earl. When the measure was in agitation it was urged that, by altering the duties on Wines in the manner accomplished, a better feeling would arise in France, and this assertion had been fully borne out by the fact. He was very happy to bear this testimony upon the subject, that the alteration upon public feeling in France was most advantageous to the commerce of both countries. The Earl of Aberdeen said, in a financial point of view, he had regarded the measure as one which would not realise the anticipations of Ministers; but in a political point of view he must ever deprecate it, even were its financial advantages much greater than in reality they were; for they had been dearly purchased, having been obtained at the expense of national faith, and in opposition to existing treaties. When the Bill was in progress he had entered his protest against it, and that protest was recorded among the Journals of the House. who had vested their property in the West Indies, who, though they never had a slave themselves, were completely ruined. He did not wish to enter into the subject, but he could not avoid taking notice of the matter; for he saw that the Ministers had rushed into the subject surrounded with difficulties. They had brought it forward prematurely, and bad incurred a responsibility, both moral and political, greater than had ever been incurred by any Ministers within his recollection. With respect to the proposition recently made in the other House, it ought never to be forgotten that the Resolutions of 1822, and the right hon. Gentleman who moved those Resolutions, stated that to effect any good for the slaves, it was indispensable to have the assistance of the colonists and of the colonial assemblies. Lord Suffield said, that the majority of those from whom he had presented petitions, did not recognise the right of one man to hold property in other men, and therefore they would not consent to compensation, which might imply such a right. At the same time they were ready to give relief to those planters, whose property might be destroyed by immediate abolition. The noble Duke had not attended the Committee which sat last Session; if the noble Duke had, he was Lord Ellenborough felt great satisfac-assured that the noble Duke would have tion that the returns had been asked for; and was persuaded that the result would show, that what had been predicted by his noble friend was perfectly accurate. Motion agreed to. ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.] The Duke of Wellington presented petitions from Fortrose, and Ross, for the Abolition of Slavery, but with due regard to the honour and interests of all parties concerned. He concurrred in the view expressed in these petitions, rather than in that expressed in the petitions presented by the noble Baron. It was more consistent with the Resolutions of Parliament for the protection of property. He deprecated these premature discussions, they had inflicted great injury and ruin upon all persons connected with the West Indies. He had at a great public ceremony that morning met no less than six officers, who had been nearly ruined by the agitation, the greater part of whom had no slaves. There were many men formed a very different opinion from that which he now entertained. That the measure proposed by his Majesty's Ministers was premature he denied, because there was not one person connected with the West Indies, who did not admit that it was impossible that things could remain as at present. The Duke of Wellington begged leave to explain to their Lordships why he had not attended the Committee, He had the misfortune not to hear on one side, He found it, therefore, very difficult to make out what went on in such a Committee, and therefore he thought that he might spend his time more advantageously than in attending it. There was another Committee, which he had not attended, though he took considerable interest in the subject for the same reason the Committee which sat to inquire into tithes. What he had meant to say on the subject of the slaves, was that emancipation would put an end to the means of making them work, and so injure the property of the planter. respect to not being friendly to the abolition, he wished to say that he had done more in the way of negotiation, written more notes, and entered into more treaties on the subject of the abolition of the slave trade, and of putting an end to slavery than any man living. A noble friend of his had perhaps done more than he had, but except that noble friend he had done more than any other man to promote the abolition. Nobody had gone further or more strenuously wished to effect that object than he had. With | Canterbury well enough to be aware that he was incapable of stating that which he did not strictly believe to be true; but still he would assert that the assertions of the reverend Prelate were in themselves false, when he stated the number of converts made amongst the negroes by the clergy of the Established Church. The fact was, that the converts were made by the dissenting clergy, and by them alone. The Church of England was certainly popular in our West-India colonies, because they meddled less than the dissenters. If this were otherwise, how would the noble Lord attempt to account for the recent destruction of the Methodist chapels in Jamaica? Lord Suffield, in presenting another petition on the same subject from the Methodists of the new connection of Boston, Leicestershire, entered into further explanations, and contended that nothing whatever had been done by the colonists to promote the emancipation of the slaves, or to comply with the expressed wishes of the people of England. Lord Wynford said, that much had been done by the colonists; and had the noble Lord been present on a former occasion, he would have heard the Primate explain a great number of measures which had been adopted to relieve the slaves, and prepare them for free labour. Certainly he thought that to put an end to apprehension altogether on their part, would put an end to labour, and would destroy the West-India interest. It would be equally injurious to the masters and slaves, and would inflict irreparable injury on our commerce, as well as endanger the credit of the country. When it was said that these petitioners could not recognise the principles of men having the property of men, let him tell them that the Apostles had recognised slavery, and he presumed that they did not pretend to be better Christians than the Apostles. That principle had in truth been recognised from the earliest ages. At the same time he was anxious to get rid of that species of property as soon as possible. He was glad to hear that the petitioners were ready to give compensation [Lord Suffield said, not compensation but relief]-he did not know the difference, but he hoped these petitioners had calculated the amount which would be required to give relief, if they destroyed the property of the planters, for he doubted whether they would be ready and willing to supply the sum which would be required. • Lord Suffield knew the Archbishop of The Marquess of Bute could not sit quietly by, and hear such an attack made upon the Established Church of this country. He thought it a most uncalledfor attack on the part of the noble Lord; an attack, indeed, which never would have been made if the noble Earl had heard the report of the religious society on education, and the improvement of the condition of the negroes, which was altogether supported by members of the Church of England. The Earl of Haddington said, his noble friend opposite had not only attacked the Established Church, but assumed the fact, that its members were valued, because they did nothing. He sincerely hoped, that some noble Lord, better acquainted with the subject, would enter upon a proper defence of the Established Church against so serious, and, he would add, so unfounded a charge. Lord Suffield denied, that he had cast any general imputation upon the Church, but he would refer to the case of the rev. Mr. Brydges, Chaplain to the Governor, who had been convicted of having improperly flogged his female slaves. STAFFORD INDEMNITY BILL.] The Earl of Radnor moved the Order of the Day for the further Consideration of the Report on the Stafford Bribery Bill. The Duke of Wellington said, that when he had first heard of the Bill, he had felt a great objection to it, because he thought it was more calculated to encourage than to prevent bribery; and if the Bill had not been much altered up-stairs, he should have felt it his duty to have opposed its passing into a law. Evidence had, however, been given before that Committee, which had proved in the clearest manner, that bribery, to an unparalleled extent, had prevailed in the borough of Stafford for a great many years, and the Committee were unanimously of opinion, that the preamble of the Bill had been fully proved. Under these circumstances, he concurred in the propriety of giving the Select Committee of the House of Commons the powers of indemnifying witnesses, as provided in this Bill; which had been also greatly improved in another respect-namely, that the indemnification should not be extended to the candidates at the last election. He thought it was essentially necessary, that those who had carried on the bribery should not be exempted from the operation of the law. Under all these circumstances, he should withdraw his opposition to the Bill. Report agreed to. 122 HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, May 17, 1833. MINUTES.] Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. GROTE, an Account of the Number of Commissions of Bankruptcy Places in Scotland, for Alterations in the Royal Burghs (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr. LYALL, from Merchants and Shipowners of London; and Mr. G. F. Youse, from Newcastle, against the Dutch Embargo.-By Mr. Alderman THOMPSON, from Sunderland, and other Places, in favour of the Jewish Civil Disabilities Bill.--By Mr. J. M GASKELL, from Madely, for the benefit of a Resident Magistrate.-By Mr. J. OswALD, from the Hand-loom Weavers of Bridgetown, Glasgow, for a Board of Trade, and for Relief.-By Mr. MARJORIBANKS, from Dingwall, for an Alteration in the present System of Church Patronage in Scotland.-By Mr. DUGDALE, from Sutton, Coldfield, and Hillmorton, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath, and against the Sale of Beer Act.-By Mr. A. JOHNSTON, from St. Andrew's; and Mr. MARJORIBANKS, from Dingwall,-for Alterations in the Royal Burgh (Scotland) Bill.-By Lord EASTNOR, from Banff; and Sir GEORGE STAUNTON, from Bursledon Bridge,-for the total Repeal of the Malt Tax.-By Mr. Mostyx, from Holywell, against the Assessed Taxes; and from another Place in Wales, for Amending the present State of tie Established Church in Wales.-By Mr. F. SHAW, from several Places in Ireland, against the Church Temporahties (Ireland) Bill; and from one Place, for a Provision for the Infirm and Helpless Poor of Ireland; but opposing the Introduction of Poor Laws; another from the same Place, against the New System of Education; and from Dungannon, for a Revision of the Criminal Laws. PRESENTATION OF PETITIONS.] Mr. Fergus O'Connor gave notice, that he meant to move a Resolution to this effect, that the absence of Ministers from the House of Commons during the presentation of Petitions, at the morning sittings, is an insult to the House of Commons, and an injustice to the people of England. As no Ministers were there to attend to the petitions of the people, it seemed to him to be quite unnecessary to go through the farce of presenting them. He had petitions intrusted to him for presentation, Account of the Amount of the House and Window Tax but he would not bring thein forward in issued in each year, from 1822 to 1852.-On the Motion of Mr. Alderman THOMPSON, an Account of all Vessels detained in British Ports, under the Order in Council of the 6th of November, and of such as have been Liberated under the Order in Council of the 3rd of December: also Copies of the Applications made to the Privy Council for the Release of Vessels and their Cargoes, with a Statement of the Grounds on which such Applications have been granted or rejected.-On the Motion of Mr. PRYME, an for the City of Oxford and Town of Cambridge, and the Amount of Surcharge.-On the Motion of Mr. HUME, a Island of Ceylon. Copy of the New Charter of Justice lately granted to the Petitions presented. By Mr. HYETT, from Minchinhampton, for the Repeal of the Duties on Articles of Clerkship; and from Stroud, Woodchester, and other Places, for the Repeal of the Sale of Beer Act.-By Mr. PEASE, Lord SANDON, Mr. J. SMITH, and Sir M. W. RIDLEY, from several Places,-for the Repeal of the Sale of Beer Act; and by Mr. PHILPOTTS, from several Places, against the Amending the Bankrupt Laws (Scotland).-By Mr. PHIL Repeal of that Act.-By Mr. OLIPHANT, from Perth, for the absence of Ministers. The only benefit the people had obtained from the Reformed Parliament was, to have their petitions thrust into a bag under the Table, unheeded by those whose duty it was to attend to them. They might just as well be thrown into a bag hung up in the Library, or in some distant room in the building, without being brought into the House of Commons at all. It was quite ridiculous to think that such a course of proceeding could be suffered to go on. If they were merely to have a bauble in this Reform Act, he trusted some hon. Member would come forward and move its repeal. No earthly good had been done; on the contrary, they had raised the exManufacturers of the same Place, for a Commission of In-pectations of the people, by the hopes quiry.—By Mr. J. SMITH, from Borrowstowness, for an In POTTS, from Gloucester, for an Alteration of the Law rela tive to the Admission of Notaries Public; and from the same Place, for Vote by Ballot.-By Mr. SCOTT, from Winchester, for a Repeal of the Malt Duty.-By Mr. G. F. YOUNG, from the Shipowners of Newcastle, for a Repeal of the Duty on Marine Insurances.By Mr. BUCKINGHAM, from Preston, for the Suppression of Spirit and Beer Shops.-By Sir RICHARD KRANE, from Cappoquin, for Relief from the Excessive Assessment.-By Mr. PARKER, from Sheffield, against the Highway Bill; and from the Cotton Spinners and quiry into the Distressed State of the Shipping Interest.By Mr. TOOKE, from the Independents of Christ Church (Hants), for a Charter to the London University; and from several Metropolitan Parishes, for making extra-pa rochial Places contributory to the Poor, and other Rates. -By Mr. GILLON and Mr. OLIPHANT, from several they held out, to a height far beyond what they found themselves able to meet: they neglected their business in that House, and if they continued thus to absent themselves when they ought to be {MAY 17} ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.] Mr. William C. Gladstone presented a Petition from Portarlington for the Abolition of Slavery. He wished then to allude to certain observations made by the noble Lord, the late Under-Secretary for the Colonies, in his speech to the House on Tuesday night. The noble Lord had selected an estate in Demerara, belonging to his nearest relative, for the purpose of showing what a destruction of human life had taken place in the West Indies, from the manner in which the slaves were worked. The noble Lord stated, that, in three years, a decrease of seventy-one slaves had taken place on the estate of Vreeden Hoop, which he attributed to the increased cultivation of sugar; but the noble Lord omitted to state the real cause of this decrease, in the very large proportion of Africans upon the estate. When it came into the possession of his father, it was so weak, owing to the great number of Africans upon it, that he was obliged to add 200 people to the gang. It was notorious, that Africans were imported into Demerara and Trinidad up to a later period than into any other colony; and he should, when the proper time arrived, be able to prove, that the decrease on Vreeden Hoop was among the old Africans, and that there was an increase going on in the Creole population, which would be an answer to the statement of the noble Lord. The quantity of sugar produced, said by the noble Lord to be 1,900 lbs. per head annually, was small in proportion to that produced on many other estates. Within a short period, the cultivation of cotton in Demerara had been abandoned, and that of coffee very much diminished, and the people employed in these sources of production had been transferred to the cultivation of sugar. Demerara, too, was peculiarly circumstanced; for, owing to the nature of the soil, sugar was made all the year round; and, consequently, the labour of the same number of negroes distributed over the year, would, in that colony, produce a given quantity of sugar with less injury to the people, than a similar number in other colonies working only at the stated periods of was ready to admit that this cultivation crop. He VOL. XVII. Third Series S others; and he would ask, were there not more severe character than certain employments in this and other countries more destructive to life than painting, and working in lead mines, both others? He would only instance those of of which were well known to have that tendency. The noble Lord attempted to impugn the character of the gentleman acting as manager of his father's estates; and in making this selection, he had certainly been most unfortunate; for there was not an individual in the colony more proverbial for humanity, and the kind treatment of his slaves, than Mr. Maclean. That gentleman had acted in judicial capacities, and had, during his long residence, been appointed by the Orphan Chamber to very important trusts. He held in his hand two letters from Mr. Maclean, in which that gentleman spoke in the kindest terms of the people under his charge; described their state of happiness, content, and healthiness; their good conduct, and the infrequency of severe punishment; and recommended certain additional comforts, which he said the slaves well deserved. by the noble Lord, that Mr. Moss, a genIt was stated tleman of the highest respectability, had transferred the charge of his estate from his former manager, to the individual just alluded to. He had done so; but the fact was, that up to that period his estate was a source of loss, rather than of profit, owing to the idle habits of the people. behalf of the colony of Grenada, whose Mr. Marryat had been instructed, on interests he represented, to correct some of the mis-statements contained in the speech of the right hon. Secretary for the colonies; but, before entering into particulars, he could not but deeply regret the tone and temper of that speech towards the Colonial Assemblies. Secretary truly stated, that almost insurThe right hon. mountable difficulties met him on every side, in the adjustment of this important question. What then could be the motive or policy of gratuitously raising up a still greater difficulty in courting, as it were, the hostility of those men through whom, and by whom alone, any plan could be safely and satisfactorily carried into execution? Supposing, even, that the accusations were true, was it fair or candid to use such language towards men who were In rejecting the measures proposed by the not in a situation to defend their conduct? 2 X POWER OF THE SECRETARY AT WAR.] Colonel Evans said, he was anxious to put a question to the hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary at War; and he could assure him, that he did so with all respect for the office he held, and with every good feeling towards himself personally. The question was, however, one of great public importance, and not merely of personal interest. During a recent election contest, a statement appeared in the public prints assuming that the person holding the office of Secretary at War had the power at his own pleasure to remove any officer on the half-pay list from his Majesty's service. Undoubtedly the reports of public proceedings were usually very accurate, but during elections, and at times of great excitement, the press, at least some portion of the press, was not very scrupulous in regard to the object which they had in view. He was bound, therefore, to assume, that it was in conse Government, these Legislatures had acted, not in a spirit of "scorn and mockery," but he believed, upon a conscientious conviction, that while a system of slavery existed, the power of the master must be absolute; and in this they had been fully borne out by the testimony of the noble Lord, the late Under-Secretary for the Colonies, who stated, that they had done wisely in rejecting the Orders in Council attempted to be imposed upon them, and that he believed a greater amount of punishment was inflicted in Dominica, under the mitigated system of slavery, than in Jamaica, where the power of the master was absolute. That speech was a complete answer to the charges of the right hon. Secretary against the Colonial Legislatures. With respect to the measure of the right hon. Secretary, he must express his deep disappointment at it, for it was neither safe nor satisfactory. With every disposition to bring this most complicated question to a satisfactory adjust-quence of some warp or partizanship, that ment, admitting that the time was now arrived, when a definite period must be fixed for the extinction of slavery, he could not conscientiously give the measure, as it now stood, his support. He trusted, however, that before it was again brought forward, such modifications would be made, as would remove his objections; for in its present shape it would be found to be impracticable. He would remind the House, that by the Acts of the Grenada Legislature, slave evidence was admitted on all trials in civil and criminal cases, in the same manner in every respect as the testimony of free persons was received; that slaves were allowed property almost without restriction; that punishments were recorded; that the use of the whip was abolished in the field since 1825? and that manumissions, encouragement to marriage, prevention of separation of families, and religious instruction, had been provided for. He could confirm this by referring to the despatches of Lord Bathurst and Sir George Murray, in which were acknowledged the spirit of liberality and benevolence that characterized the Acts of the Grenada Legislature. He regretted to state this in the absence of every member of his Majesty's Government; but he could not permit the assertions of the right hon. Secretary to remain any longer without contradiction. Petition laid on the Table. this statement was made. In a subsequent The Speaker begged the hon. and gallant Member would confine himself to his question. Colonel Evans said, that the question which he rose to put was, whether the Secretary at War had the power to remove at his pleasure any Officer on the Halfpay List from his Majesty's service? Mr. Ellice said, he had no hesitation in answering the question put to him by the hon. and gallant Colonel. If, unfortunately, it appeared necessary to remove any Officer from the Half-pay List, it was the duty of the Secretary at War to take his Majesty's pleasure on the subject; and the Secretary at War was responsible for |