Roe, J.

Ross, H.

Ruthven, E.

Stewart, J.
Talbot, J. H.
Tennyson, C.
Tynte, C.
Vigors, N.
Walker, C. A.
TELLERS.
Attwood, M.
Sinclair, G.

HOUSE OF LORDS,
Thursday, April 25, 1833.

(Scotland).

parts of the country, some of which had little or no jurisdiction, and many others of which were full of abuses. There were exceptions, however, in which a great deal of business was done, to the satisfaction of those concerned. These, he thought, might be saved at least for the present. But he thought that it

common

would be more convenient, if, instead of
their jurisdiction being only optional on
the part of litigants (as prayed for by the
petitioners), which would leave them
Courts only in name (for he had no
doubt, if they had only a
jurisdiction with the Courts he proposed
to establish, that they would be forsaken)
he thought he said, it would be proper
to give them exclusive jurisdiction over
the class of causes of which they now took
Cognizance. He should therefore think
it his duty, on the introduction of the
Local Jurisdiction Bill, to move some

MINUTES.] Bill. Read a second time:-Public Revenue
Petitions presented. By Lord SUFFIELD, the Dukes of
RICHMOND, NORFOLK, and CLEVELAND, by the Earls of
DURHAM, SEFTON, GREY, and MORLEY, and by Lords
DUNDAS and BARHAM, from a very great Number of
Places,—against Slavery.-By the Duke of NORFOLK,
from the Cutlers of Sheffield; and by Earl GREY, from
Kingsbridge and Dodbrooke, for Limiting the Hours for
Employing Children in Mills and Factories.-By the Earl
of ROSEBERY, from the Medical Practitioners of Man-modification of the 19th clause.
chester, against the Apothecaries Act; and from Paisley,
against the Existing System of Church Patronage in Scot-
land. By Earl GREY, from the Landholders of the Barony
of Castlereagh, for amending the Grand Jury Laws (Ire-
land). By the Earl of RODEN, from the Synod of Perth
and Stirling, for securing to the Irish the Performance of
Church Service in their own language; and from an
Orange Lodge, Birmingham, against the Irish Church
Bill.

Petitions laid on the Table.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Thursday, April 25, 1833.

MINUTES.] Papers ordered. On the Motion of Sir HENRY
VERNEY, various Returns relative to the Management of
all the Gaols in England and Wales. On the Motion of
Mr. GROTE, an Account of the Local Duties paid on
Coals in the City of London.-On the Motion of Mr.
HUME, an Account of all the Sums paid as Compensation
for the Loss of Sinecures in the United Kingdom.-On the
Motion of Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE, an Account of the Sums
paid to each Newspaper in Ireland for inserting Govern-
ment Proclamations.-On the Motion of Mr. Alderman
THOMPSON, an Account of the Surcharges made in the
last year for the House-tax in the Borough of Sunderland.
-On the Motion of Mr. BAINBRIDGE, an Account of the
Number of Gallons of Proof Spirits permitted out from
the Distillers' Stocks in England in the years 1852, and
1833.

LOCAL JUDICATURES.] Lord Lyndhurst presented two Petitions from the Commissioners of the Court of Requests of Kingston-upon-Hull, and from the Inhabitants generally of that place, against the 19th Clause of the Local Judicature Bill, which takes away the jurisdiction of the Courts of Requests. The petitioners complained, that the machinery of the new Act was not well Petitions presented. By Messrs. ADAMS, LENNARD, and

adapted to the habits and circumstances of the country, and they prayed to be heard against that particular clause of it by Counsel at the Bar of the House.

The Lord Chancellor said, that the petitions presented by the noble Lord were well worthy the attention of their Lordships. He was aware that these were not the only petitions which would be presented against the 19th clause of the Local Bill, and he did not hesitate to declare that some enactment, different from an immediate repeal of the jurisdiction of those Courts would be necessary. It was absolutely necessary, however, that something should be done to put them on a better footing. There were upwards of 280 such Courts in different

CHRISTMAS, from a Number of Places,-against Slavery.
-By Mr. GORING, from Yapton, for a Repeal of the
Duties on One-Horse Carts, Soap, and Malt and Hops.-
By Mr. CHRISTMAS, from several Bodies of Clergymen in
Ireland, for Alterations in the Irish Church Reform Bill.
-By Mr. HALL DARE, from the Resident Clergy of the
County of Essex, in favour of the Lord's Day Observance
Bill; and from Barking, against the Sale of Beer Act.-By
Colonel DAVIES, from Worcester, for a Repeal of the
Assessed Taxes.-By Mr. S. A. BAYNTUN, from several
Dissenting Congregations, for Exempting Protestant
Dissenting Chapels from the payment of Parochial Rates.

EDUCATION-CRIMINAL RETURNS.] Mr. Lennard presented a Petition from the towns of Epping and Harlow, calling on the House to devise some plan by which the children of the poorer classes may be provided with education suited to their situation in society, and which might not interfere with their religious feelings and opinions. The petitioners intreated those

large reduction of taxation, to be relieved from the dreadful pressure of their burthens; and surely this was but a reasonable desire in a nation oppressed with the charge of twenty-eight millions every year for their debt, and with twenty-two millions every

who differed from them as to the import- short, it amounted to this:-That if some ance of education, to examine the gaols speedy and effectual check were not put to and houses of correction, penitentiaries, the dreadful march of demoralization, no and even workhouses of the country, and property would be safe. Instead of the to compare the extent of education among miserable trifling of which the House the inmates with the diffusion of know- daily made a display, they ought to set ledge throughout the country at large, arduously to work in producing effectual when it would be found that crime pre- reform, and education was one of the parvailed the most among the least-instructed. ticular subjects on which it was most reHe entirely agreed with the petitioners, quired. Experience taught, that crime was who stated, that although the increase of the inevitable concomitant of ignorance. crime in this country was not to be attributed He, in common with the whole country, to ignorance alone, yet that, without edu- felt deeply grieved that his Majesty's cation, the mass of society could not be Ministers had not brought before the House, preserved from corruption, and an increase as leading questions, the subjects of eduof crime. He would take that opportunity cation and the Poor-laws. He was very of expressing his regret at the imperfect sorry that the Lord Chancellor-all powermanner in which the criminal returns of ful as he was in the Cabinet-had so this country were made; and which showed grievously disappointed the ardent expecta only the number of committals, convictions, tions of the whole nation on this most imand executions. But in France the returns portant subject. It must, however, inevitwere much more in detail, and in them the ably be brought under consideration sooner persons who were convicted, were classified or later, whether the present Ministers according to age, sex, and other circum-liked it or not. What had the people been stances. The result of the French returns led to expect from the Reform Bill? A was curious, and tended strongly to illustrate and support the view of the petitioners. In one year-namely, the year 1830-out of 1,790 persons committed to prison in France, 1,063 persons could neither read nor write; 496 could read and write imperfectly; 107 could read and write well; and forty-year for the charges of their most oversix had received a good education. The following year, 1831, produced similar results, showing, in the language of the petitioners, that crime prevailed the most amongst the least instructed. He had no doubt that similar results would be estalished in this country, had we the same means of information; but unfortunately our returns were not drawn up in the same manner they were in France. But it was made clear by the Committee on secondary punishments, which sat some years ago, that atrocious crimes, viz.-offences against the person are diminished precisely in the proportion that the means of education are enlarged. The result was the same in all countries. He would not, on the presentation of a petition, trouble the House with any more facts, but he trusted the Government would take the prayer of the petitioners into their serious consideration. Mr. Hume considered the prayer of the petition to be one highly deserving the attention of the House, as the subject was of the highest possible importance. The Re-" the rabble," but respectable and orderly port on the Poor-laws presented a state of ignorance and crime in the country which ought to be appalling to every person-in

whelmingly expensive Government. But what had the people as yet got by the Reform Bill? Nothing, or worse than nothing. In the instance of the Church, had there been anything like proper or effectual reform? In this, as in everything else for the benefit of the people, the Government had gone on the principle of doing things by halves; but if they ex. pected that the nation would long suffer these insults, they would find themselves excessively mistaken. If this system were persevered in, the people would inevitably look elsewhere for better stewards, and he (Mr. Hume) most certainly should expect, in the course of a few months, to see the Right hon. member for Tamworth borne into the House in that capacity on the shoulders of the people. He did not see any of the Ministers in the House to tell them so; but he wished they had been where he had been that day, at a Meeting on the subject of the House and Window Taxes, where 4,000 or 5,000 persons, not

shopkeepers and tradesmen-he wished some Members of the Cabinet had been there and seen the manner in which the mention of

{COMMONS}

his Majesty's Ministers had been received. It | would have been a lesson for them which they could not forget. They would see, that the system they had pursued was hateful to the people; and they would learn, besides, that the already highly-indignant people were determined not to allow the continuance of such a system much longer. must shake off the trifling and lethargy Government which had hitherto so disgusted the people, and must bring forward measures suited to the necessities of the country. This was the only way in which Lord Althorp [order, order!] well, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Lord Grey-he supposed he was not out of order in mentioning that name-could redeem their characters with the English nation, of every grade of society.

Mr. Hall Dare concurred in the prayer of the Petition, believing that the most signal moral advantages would result to the people from their better education; and he therefore hoped that at no distant period his Majesty's Ministers would bring forward measures to effect this object. He also trusted that the House would on that occasion call to mind that no measure or system could be efficient for such purposes, which was not calculated to infuse religious principles into the minds of the people. Without the inculcation of religious principles, any system would be faulty.

596

such attacks on Ministers; their character Want of Employment. would be best appreciated by their acts; and in considering these, it behoved the people to make allowances for the difficulties of the position in which Ministers had been placed since taking office. He must, however, protest against the doctrines of the which were calculated to overturn the hon. members for Middlesex and Dublin, Constitution, and would be a curse to the country.

MENT.] Mr. Slaney moved for leave to PROVISION AGAINST WANT OF EMPLOYbring in a Bill to enable manufacturers and mechanics to ensure themselves against temporary want of employment, by giving them facilities for creating a safe joint approved and available security. He was fund, vested in the public funds, or other well aware, that this was a sort of subject which did not interest any political or party feelings in its favour; but no matter which referred to so important a part of our population ought, in his opinion, to be without interest to the House. In order to show the importance of the subject he would briefly call the attention of the House to the increase in the manufacturing population. During the present century, or at least within the last fifty years, the whole population of EngMr. Benett deprecated the attack made five per cent, but the manufacturing populand had increased at the rate of twentyon Ministers by the hon. member for lation had increased at the rate of fifty per Middlesex. As to what he had said about cent. At the commencement of that period, their trifling with the business of the the proportion they bore to the agricultural country, he must observe, that altogether population was one-half-now they were as no man had caused more interruption in two to one. the way of transacting public business, by made a corresponding advance in intelliIn the same period, they had irrelevant discussions, than the hon. Mem-gence; and though they had made, in some ber himself.

Mr. O'Connell defended the, hon. Member for Middlesex, than whom no Member more expedited real public business. ferring to the meeting held that day Reat the Crown and Anchor, he must say, that he had also been there, and wished the Ministers also had been present. As they were not, it was well that they should be made acquainted with the sentiments expressed there; and certainly no Ministry had ever been more crated at any meeting than the present exeGovernment were on this occasion, for having so dreadfully deceived the people in putting forward so miserable, so paltry, and so contemptible a pretence of reduction as they had done.

Sir Matthew White Ridley deprecated

still exposed to the evils of being occasioncases, provision for themselves, they were ally thrown out of employment. demand for their labour. At one period were exposed to all the evils of a fluctuating They they were excessively well off-at another they were plunged into the deepest distress. He would call the attention of the House to the causes of these fluctuations to their effects-and to the means of remedying them. The causes of the alterations in or domestic. the demand for labour were either foreign mention changes in the commercial laws of Of the former, he might other countries. Thus the alteration in the American Tariff had an immediate effect on our iron trade. At Wolverhampton lessened, and the demand for the labour of the demand for its manufactures was much