had not above one-thirtieth part for himself. Great complaints were made in this country about distress; he hoped that these accounts were exaggerated; but was not that distress to be attributed, in some measure, to the insecurity in which West-power and authority, were now more given India property was placed, connected with other similar circumstances. The WestIndia interest was unluckily at the present time exceedingly unpopular. He had done everything in his power when in office to relieve that interest, and he was convinced that till the public felt the situ-mittee, and who were themselves shareation of the planters, and was willing to do them justice, the country would not cease to feel the misery that must continue to be produced by the present state of the colonies.

to present, he should take that course with respect to them which his duty appeared to him to prescribe.

Earl Fitzwilliam was unwilling to prolong the discussion, but could not avoid saying, that the petition sailed into the harbour of their Lordships' House under something like false colours. It professed to be a petition in favour of the abolition of slavery, gradual indeed, but still in favour of abolition. However, as his noble friend observed, the petition was inconsistent inconsistent indeed; for if its reasoning were correct, there could be no greater evil for slaves and colonies than an abolition of slavery. The petitioners asserted, that the condition of the slaves was better than that of a large proportion of his Majesty's free subjects. What was the inference? Surely not in favour of an abolition, which the petition professed to support, but in favour of a perpetuation of this happy condition of slavery. Indeed, that was the result of the arguments in the petition, and in the noble Duke's speech. His opinion was, that some immediate measure of abolition was necessary; but, in speaking of immediate abolition, he did not mean, and he was sure the petitioners did not mean, that a measure should be sent out to the colonies directly, and that it should be instantly acted on in the way of emancipation. What he contemplated was, that some measure should be immediately carried into effect for substituting a new set of relations between man and man, for the subtraction of the slave from that power in reference to which there existed no appeal, and for the substitution of a system of law and justice for one of irresponsible power. Petition laid on the Table.

for the Inhabited House Duty; and also a Copy of any Report, or Return, made by the Surveyors pursuant to such Instruction.-On the Motion of Mr. RICARDO, an Account of the Number of Officers and Servants employed, and the Emoluments and Salaries received by each in the different County Gaols and Houses of Correction in England and Wales.-On the Motion of Sir JOHN RAE READ, an Account of the Imports and Exports of British and Foreign Wool, Woollen Yarn, and Woollen Manufacture, for 1832.-On the Motion of Mr. GEORGE LAMB, a Copy of the Fifth Report of the Commissioners for Inquiring into the Practice and Proceedings of the Courts of Common Law. On the Motion of Mr. EWART, an Account of the Number of Irish Poor Shipped under Passes from the Port of Liverpool, and the Expense incurred thereby.-On the Motion of Mr. SPRING RICE, an Account of the Sums paid into the Stamp Office for Duty on the Insurance from Fire, for the three last Quarters of the year 1832. Petitions presented. By Mr. EWING, from Glasgow, for the Abolition of the Stamp Duty on Receipts; and from the same Place, for an Alteration in the Royal Burgh (Scotland) Bill; and from the Faculty of Physicians and Surgeons (Glasgow), for an Alteration in the Apothecaries Act; and from the Synod of Glasgow and Ayr, for Employing Ministers and Schoolmasters in Ireland acquainted with the Irish as well as the English Language; also from the Hand-loom Weavers of Glasgow, for Local Boards of Trade, and for Relief.-By Mr. RICHARDS, from Dublin, for Poor Laws for Ireland.-By the Sheriff's of London, from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the City of London, for the Abolition of Slavery.-By Mr. CHARLES Ross, from the Protestant Dissenters of Northallerton, for a Better System of Parochial Registration, and for a Removal of the Grievances connected with the present System affecting Dissenters.

COMMUTATION OF TAXES.] Colonel Torrens, in pursuance of his notice, rose to move for the repeal of those taxes which lower the profits of capital and the wages of labour. He was aware, that the question of a Property-tax had, for the present, already been decided by the House, and that hon. Members were wearied out by the protracted debate which had recently taken place upon this subject. Nevertheless, as the question of a Property-tax had, as it appeared to him, been so much misunderstood, he would intreat the indulgence of the House while he endeavoured, as briefly as possible, to explain the manner of its operation, and to obviate the objections which had been brought forward against it. All the wealth of the country might be divided into distinct and different portions, namely, fixed property and floating capital; fixed property consisting of land, houses, funds, and money upon mortgage; and floating capital being the stock employed in cultivation, in manufactures, in trade, and commerce. Now it would appear, on a careful examination of the subject, that the revenue derived from floating capital was regulated by causes altogether different from those which regulated the revenue derived from fixed capital. In every country there was a customary rate of pro fit, without obtaining which, capitalists respecting a fresh Assessment of Houses in that County, would not engage and would not remain in

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Thursday, May 2, 1833. MINUTES.] Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. GUEST, an Account of the Glass-houses employed in the Manu

facture of Broad, Crown, Flint, and Plate, and Common Bottle Glass, in each year, from 1826 to 1832, inclusive:

of the Amount of Duty respectively charged on Flint and

Plate, Broad, Crown, and Bottle Glass, from 1826, to 1832,

with the Amount returned by way of Drawback.-On the

Motion of Mr. WARRE, an Account of the Assessment

for the Inhabited House Duty, at which a hundred of the highest rated Houses in London are Assessed, for the year ending 5th April, 1833: of the Assessment for the In

habited House Duty, at which a hundred of the highest

rated Houses in the Country are Assessed, distinguishing the Counties, for the year ending 5th April, 1833: of any Instruction given by the Tax-office to the District Surveyors in the County of Kent, since 1st January, 1831,

business. It was this customary rate of tenant required to pay more than this, he profit, always tending to equality for every could not obtain the customary rate of prospecies of floating capital, which determin- fit upon his capital, and would withdraw to ed the income of floating capital. Assuming, some other pursuit. It was quite clear, for the sake of illustration, that this rate of therefore, that as far as the land was conprofit was ten per cent., then the income of cerned, taxes upon the farmer's profit fall a farmer employing 2,000l. of floating ultimately upon the proprietor, and that capital, would be 200l. per annum. But therefore there could be nothing unjust or what determined the income of the pro- unfair, or in any way injurious to the proprietor of the farmer? It was clear that prietors of fixed property, in taxing it, the proprietor could obtain as his income on without taxing floating capital in the same rent, only that portion of the surplus pro- proportion. But this was understating the duce which might remain after the farmer case. He (Colonel Torrens) was prepared had obtained his ten per cent. upon his to show, and he hoped to demonstrate, that capital of 2,000l.; and, supposing the taxes upon revenue arising from floating whole surplus produce to be worth 400l., capital, employed in productive industry, the rent would be 2001. The principles were injurious to the proprietors of fixed which regulated the respective incomes of property, and that the rents of landed prothe farmer and of the proprietor were prietors would be actually increased by these the customary rate of profit deter- a commutation of taxes, which would remined, in the first instance, what the lieve productive industry by laying a direct former should receive, and then the rent of impost upon the revenue derived from fixed the proprietor was determined by the de- property. He believed that, with the ingree in which the value of the surplus pro- dulgence of the House, he might be able to duce exceeded what was the customary demonstrate this by a brief and simple illus profit upon the cultivator's profit. The tration:-Suppose a farmer, with 2,000l. same principle held good with respect to cultivating land which yields him over and houses. The building rent was regulated above his outlay 250l.; in this case the by the profits upon the cost of erecting the rent will be 50. Now, lay a tax of fifty house; the ground rent was determined per cent. upon the farmer's income of 2001. by the advantages of situation, giving to and the land must be abandoned and no the occupier benefits exceeding the cus- rent whatever paid; for the farmer being tomary profits upon his capital. Now, if entitled to ten per cent upon his capital of hon. Members would consider the difference 2,000l., will obtain, after the tax, only between the revenue derived from floating 150l., and will betake himself, on the excapital and the revenue obtained from fixed piration of his contract, to some other purproperty, they would immediately perceive suit. Thus taxes upon the income derived that all the objections which had been from agricultural capital prevent the culti urged against a tax upon fixed property vation of a belt of land which might other. fell to the ground, and were altogether in-wise be profitably tilled; and, as a necessary applicable. In the first place, it had been consequence, keep down the rent upon all urged that it would be unequal and unjust the better below the point which it otherto tax fixed property, and to leave other wise would attain. Not only are the descriptions of property free from impost. industrious classes deprived of employment, Now, how did this objection apply to the but the proprietors of the soil are more inlanded proprietor? Suppose, for illustra-jured, by a tax upon floating capital, than tion, that the customary rate of profit was ten per cent., and that a farmer employing 2,000/. in cultivation raises a surplus produce which, after all his outlay was paid, left him 400l. As 200l. will yield him the customary profit upon his capital, the other 2001. will be rent, and will be paid to the proprietor. But lay a tax upon the farmer's income of 100l.. and that which will remain after yielding the customary profit will be only 100l. On the expiration of the contract between the landlord and tenant, the rent will therefore be reduced from 200l. to 100%; because, were the

they could be by an equal per centage levied upon fixed property. It had been urged, as an objection to a tax upon fixed property, that it would drive capital abroad

that all would seek to escape the tax by selling out of the Funds, or by disposing of their estates and making investments in Foreign Securities. This objection was quite futile. The alarm which induced the proprietors of fixed property to sell would operate upon those who were able to purchase, and the price of all fixed property would immediately fall in proportion to the tax, so that no inducement could remain for

forward the question of making some pro- | amount to one-fourth. From this want of vision for the poor in Ireland. But, I demand for labour necessarily ensues very hope, I shall not be accused of presumption severe distress among the labouring classes. in attempting to do this, when I state that, This, combined with the consequences of nearly two months ago, I applied to the an altered system of managing land, is noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exche- stated to produce misery and suffering quer, to know if his Majesty's Govern- which no language can possibly describe, ment had any intention of introducing and which it is necessary to witness in some measure for the relief of the poor in order fully to estimate. The distress is Ireland; and was answered, "that the stated to exist in its greatest severity in the Government had no such intention." Im- suburbs of cities and towns. Dr. Doyle pressed with a deep sense of the magnitude describes the condition of this suffering and importance of the question to the best class in the strongest and most impressive interests of the United Kingdom, and re- manner. He states a case of some of the lying on the kindness and indulgence of ejected tenantry, who, seeking a refuge the House, I then determined not to shrink in the towns, after their little capital is from the discharge of what I consider to expended, become dependent upon charity. be a public duty. They next give up their house, and are obliged to take, not a room, but what they call a corner. Four of these wretched families are sometimes accommodated in one small apartment of a cabin, and three in another. I have not myself seen so many as seven families in one of these cabins, but I have been assured by one of the officiating clergymen, that there are many instances of it. Their beds are merely a little straw spread at night on the floor, and by day wrapped up or covered with a quilt or with a blanket. In these abodes of misery, disease is often produced by extreme want; disease wastes the people, for they have no food or comforts to restore them; they die in a little time."

Before I enter on the consideration of the expediency, and, as it appears to me, necessity, of making some provision for the poor in Ireland, the House will, perhaps, allow me to ask, if there be any difference of opinion amongst hon. gentlemen as to the state of Ireland? The hon. and learned member for Dublin says, [hear, hear.] But, alas! that Ireland is, but too frequently, the scene of outrage and violence, and bloodshed, none will deny. During the debate on the Irish Disturbances Bill, the then right hon. Secretary for Ireland, and many other hon. Gentlemen, described, in strong language, the atrocities and crimes which had been committed in Ireland. They said, that robbery, and vio- In proposing, as a remedy for this want lence, and murder, were perpetrated on a of employment and consequent misery in system; that property and life were not Ireland, the introduction of Poor-laws, it secure; that the ordinary laws would no is impossible not to advert to what has been longer suffice; and that, in order to punish done, by way of provision for the poor, in and repress crime, the Government must England. The alleged effects of Poor-laws be armed with powers of a novel and ex- in England will, I expect, be urged by traordinary character. Little, however, some hon. Gentlemen, as an argument was said of the want of employment in against their introduction into Ireland. I Ireland; and, still less, of the poverty and quite agree, indeed, with those who conmisery that prevail there. In order to sider the whole question as much an Enggive some idea of this want of employ-lish as an Irish question. And, with this ment, and poverty, and misery, I will, impression on my mind, and in order to with the permission of the House, read a save the time of the House, I shall confine passage from the Summary Report,' pub-myself to four heads of observation; and lished, in 1830, by the Select Committee shall address the House on each with as appointed to inquire into and report on the much brevity as I can. state of the poor in Ireland.

"Your Committee regret to be obliged to state, that a very considerable proportion of the population is considered to be out of employment. The number is estimated differently, and by Mr. Smith is supposed to be as much as one-fifth of the entire population. By Mr. Ensor it is carried still further, and is calculated to

The first head of the important subject, which I proceed to bring under the attention of the House, is the great injury sustained by England from the dreadful extent of pauperism in Ireland.

It must be obvious to the House, that the melancholy extent of pauperism in Ireland, by keeping that country in a constant state of trouble, and serving to excite the