Stamp Duties Bill-House in Committee Division List 1423 THURSDAY, MAY 11. IV. NEW MEMBERS Sworn. Flint County-Hon. Thomas Edward Mostyn Lloyd Mostyn, v. the Hon. Edward MONDAY, MAY 15. Devonport-Sir Thomas Erskine Perry, v. Right Hon. Henry Tufnell, Steward of Lichfield-Lord Waterpark, v. Viscount Anson, now Earl of Lichfield. Hastings-Frederick North, Esq., v. Musgrave Brisco, Esq., Chiltern Hundreds. THURSDAY, May 25. Hertford County-Abel Smith, Esq., v. Thomas Plumer Halsey, Esq., deceased. HANSARD'S THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND, APPOINTED TO MEET 20 AUGUST, 1852, AND FROM THENCE HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA. FOURTH VOLUME OF THE SESSION. sure of the Lord Advocate had of course received the sanction of Government, and was about to undergo discussion in the other House of Parliament. It had occa- very great discussion in Scotland, and he was aware of the opposition to it ORD BROUGHAM presented a peti- very important subject. Although the Bill to which it had reference-the Scotch Edu- cation Bill-was not before their Lordships, but was still before the other House of Par- liament, he was most strictly within the rule in presenting it, because it had no prayer except generally for a safe and beneficial measure upon that subject. The petitioners referred to the Government plan for improving the system of education in Scotland, and strongly recommended and approved of that plan in its main particu- lars; though they objected particularly to the provision respecting religious instruc- tion, and prayed their Lordships to adopt a system of education which should be uni- qualities-joined with the others in the form, unsectarian, and popular. The mea-apprehension that this measure, if carried the weight of whose opinion could not be denied, not only on account of the high station he for many years occupied B into effect, might interfere with the old-after considering it with various bodies of established system of parochial schools in those Dissenters themselves, and when he Scotland. He (Lord Brougham) could not thought he had come to a full understandpretend to the same information on the ing with them, and that the measure might subject that was possessed by his noble be carried, he was compelled to withdraw it and learned Friend or to the information out of deference to their objections, and possessed by his noble Friend opposite (the from his sincere respect for them as fellowEarl of Aberdeen), who belonged to that labourers of many years in the cause of country; but he was inclined to think, so education, though he considered they were far as he had an opportunity of forming actuated by the most groundless jealousy. an opinion upon the plan about to be in- Years elapsed, and he again brought fortroduced, that it would not interfere with ward a measure on the subject, and then the parochial schools in Scotland, and that he had to meet, not the prejudices of the the parochial system, which, beyond all Dissenters, but the prejudices of a most doubt, was of the utmost possible benefit, rev. Friend (the Archbishop of Canterand had produced incalculable advantages bury). On that occasion, which was in the to the people of Scotland, was more ser- year 1839, Lord Melbourne's Government viceable to the country districts than to supported his Bill; but a right rev. Prelate, the towns, and that, if increased means who had a few days before voted with him of education were given to the towns, the and with the Government against the Archresult would be beneficial. He could not bishop, was the first to move that it should help adverting to what he had so often oc- be read a second time that day three casion to lament, that the cause of educa- months; and he defeated the Government tion should have suffered so much, and as well as himself (Lord Brougham) on should still suffer so much, from the con- that Bill. Then he found it was utterly flicting feelings-he would venture to say, and absolutely impossible to carry any rather than conflicting interests-as well educational measure without a comproin England and Ireland as in Scotland, of mise, and he addressed a letter to his the different sects which unhappily divide most dear and inestimable Friend, unhapthe people of all the three countries. How pily now no more, the late Duke of Bedoften had he failed, both in the other House ford, in concert with whom he had brought of Parliament and in their Lordships' forward that Bill, and who plainly admitted House, in the measures which he had pro- after the result that without a compromise pounded, which had received the greatest it was utterly impossible they could succeed possible consideration, which had appeared in carrying any plan of education, and that to unite in their favour all interests, whe- the plan should be such as might, if possither secular or spiritual, and which, never-ble, unite in its support the Church and theless, were found impossible to be carried in Parliament, and to become law; because, on the one hand, the Established Church, though deeply interested in the duty of instructing the people, and strongly disposed, nay, actually contributing to encourage plans for improving popular education, seemed to regard one thing more than even teaching the people, and that was the power of successfully conflicting with the Dissenters; and, on the other hand, though the Dissenters had been among the most zealous advocates of education during the last fifty years, and had made great sacrifices for the encouragement of popular instruction, there was one thing they valued a little more than popular education, and that was a victory over the Established Church. Thus, between the two contending parties, education oftentimes fell to the ground. After the most mature consideration of his first measure, that of 1820, in all its details, Lord Brougham the Dissenters. He hoped and trusted they were now on the eve of obtaining some such measure; and, thinking that the Bill now before the other House, so far as Scotland was concerned, was founded upon some such salutary compromise, he should endeavour to recommend the adoption of it, when it found its way into that House. There was one point in the petition which gave him great satisfaction, and that was, that the petitioners stated that they rejoiced. in the proposal to establish reformatory and industrial schools, a most wise and salutary provision. It would be a most blessed measure if that Bill should be carried with such a provision, and such provision extended also to this country and to Ireland; and from what had passed elsewhere, he had reason to hope that an hon. Friend of his (Mr. Adderley), having propounded a Bill of that kind and with that view, would permit it to be superseded, provided a substitute for it were given, a measure of the same sort to be introduced by his noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department. He should take an opportunity of referring to this matter on a future occasion; it seemed to him to be an object of the greatest possible importance, and he could bear his testimony to the admirable working of an institution of the kind to which he had referred, which he had lately inspected while on a tour in France, and which was worthy of the highest commendation. He referred to the great institution at Mettray founded by Viscount Corbillieux and M. Demetz, upon the plan first adopted at Stretton upon Dunsmure in Warwickshire, which unhappily, after many years of successful action and rendering incalculable benefits to society, has within the last two months been given up for want of funds. Petition ordered to lie on the table. this subject; but he could, by quotations from Grotius down to the present time, show their Lordships that every jurist had either assumed the doctrine, or had expressly laid it down for law. He should content himself with referring their Lordships to an authority which they would all reverence-he meant Edmund Burkean Englishman, or he was perhaps wrong in saying Englishman, because he was one of the glories of Ireland. Mr. Burke, in his celebrated letter to the Duke of Portland, published in 1793, used this language:"The laws and constitution of the kingdom intrust the sole and exclusive right of communicating with foreign potentates to the King. This is an undisputed part of the legal perogative of the Crown." Then Mr. Burke designated an unauthorised interference with a foreign Government " most unconstitutional act," and added a "The legitimate and sure mode of communication between this nation and foreign Powers is rendered uncertain, precarious, and treacherous, by being divided into two channels, by which means the foreign Powers can never be assured of the real authority or validity of any public transaction whatsoever." He then pointed out that such unauthorised communications "make a highway in England for the intrigues of foreign Courts in our affairs ;" and concluded with these emphatic words "This is a sore evil, an evil from which, before this time, England was more free than any other nation. Nothing can preserve us from that evil, which connects Cabinet factions abroad with popular factions here, but the keeping sacred the Crown as the only channel of communication with every other nation." LORD CAMPBELL, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that he was well aware of the responsibility he incurred by laying this Bill on the table of their Lordships' House, inasmuch as it sought to extend the penal law of the country. He hoped that the Bill would operate only by way of prevention, and that, after it had passed into law, what it sought to remedy would have ceased to exist. At the same time he proposed to establish a new misdemeanor, which, although liable only to a mild punishment, could not be proposed without casting upon the person who proposed it the burden of proving that it Now, the facts upon which Mr. Burke would not interfere with any natural or based these observations were, he believed, constitutional right, and that some evil not actually existing; but the authority had been experienced, or might be appre- of that statesman's name upon the abhended, which rendered legislation neces- stract question of law was equally great, sary. He believed that he should be able this being the doctrine he laid down to show to their Lordships that the Bill upon the supposition that the state of now before them did not interfere with any things which he apprehended really did natural or constitutional right, and that it exist. There could be no doubt that was called for by evils which had been exeven with those who had no evil intenperienced, and by greater evils which might tion-even with the loyal, the patriotic, be apprehended. There could, he pre- and the intelligent-evil might arise from sumed, be no doubt that the law of nations unauthorised communications with foreign was correctly laid down in the preamble Powers. They might thwart unconsciously of the Bill; there could be no doubt that, the measures of their own Government; by the law of nations, intercourse between they might lay themselves open to mistiStates could only be legitimately carried fication and cajolery on the part of those on by the Governments of those States, with whom they interfered; and they might or by Ministers or officials duly authorised be made the tools of foreign Powers in , to carry on negotiations. It would be spreading in this country doctrines and pedantry in him to quote authorities upon opinions that were unfavourable to the |