London. The hon Gentleman the Mem- the House that the doctrines of my noble ber for Manchester said-I dont't quote Friend are entirely and essentially different his words, but I hope I shall represent from what the hon. Member supposed them their effect clearly-"The noble Lord ad- to be, and I join with him, and I am sure I mits that, for all legislative purposes, the may say with my noble Friend, in protestGovernment have lost the power of guiding ing against a supposition that we were the House of Commons, but he makes a capable of propounding or entertaining claim of this nature, that, although the such a notion as this, in error, he has asGovernment have lost the confidence of cribed to us. Sir, I think that nothing the Parliament for the business of legisla- can be more invidious in Members of an tion, yet, inasmuch as the Government existing Administration than a hostile rehave likewise succeeded in involving the view of the measures of former Governcountry in a dangerous war, the House of ments. My noble Friend, as it appeared Commons must hold itself debarred from to me, confined himself-in a tone, as I its right to withdraw its confidence in the thought, most calm and dignified-to so Government, and its tenure of office shall much reference to questions of that class as be prolonged from this period until the war was absolutely extorted from him by the is finally settled." Such a doctrine as that necessity of the case. No such necessity undoubtedly never fell-I will not say from is incumbent upon me, and therefore I the lips of the noble Lord-but I never shall enter upon no such discussion; but I heard doctrines so absurd propounded by may, perhaps, with great deference to the any hon. Gentleman, however little noted judgment of those who have spoken, be or distinguished in this House. To make permitted to plead that I do no think that an announcement that any Gentlemen who the case of legislative impotence has been may have got possession of office have no- so fully made out against the Administhing to do but to involve the country in a tration of Lord Aberdeen. The Adminiswar, and then to say they shall thereby ac- tration of Lord Aberdeen has held office quire a lease of power which shall last for just one Session and a half. The until that war is concluded, really implies a Session of the present year has been a height of impudence or of folly to which I Session during which there has been an do not think that any of us have as yet as- extraordinary disturbance in the public cended. The doctrine of my noble Friend mind. If we are told in the House of was, if I understood him rightly, of a dif- Commons that we have not been able to ferent character entirely. He stated that, in make that progress with legislative meareference to many measures of ordinary le- sures that might have been anticipated, gislation, it was undoubtedly true we had and might have been desired, I think it is failed during the present Session of Par- fair that those who so exercise the office of liament in persuading the House of Com- critics should recollect what is the effect of mons to adopt our views; but, he said, a European war upon the mind of the there were other questions of extraordinary nation and the disposition of Parliament magnitude, which at this period transcend itself. I think that those who, naturally all questions of ordinary legislation-he enough, are disposed to impute this want did not say that those were matters upon of progress to the Government should go which the House of Commons had no right back to the period of former wars, and to pronounce that those were matters should see what amount of progress in upon which the House of Commons had pacific legislation has been made by strong no right to give their confidence or with- Administrations in periods when the public hold it-what he said was, there were mind was at once excited, absorbed, and great questions connected with peace and exhausted by the anxieties and the efforts war which were now the direct and pri- of the war. mary questions which threw all others into the shade, and with respect to those great primary questions the House of Commons had not thought fit to withdraw its confidence from the Government, but had upon every occasion given the most unmistakeable support to the policy of the Government in the shape of a triumphant majority. I hope, Sir, I have made it perfectly clear to the hon. Member and to

But, if I may be permitted. to advert in defence of ourselves to the last Session of Parliament, I do not think there will be found a recent Session in which a greater number of substantial and important measures were brought forward and successfully carried. I am sure, Sir, I am the last man who has any reason or any disposition to complain of the hon. Member for Manchester as to what he has said; but I am bound to appeal to his

sense of justice when I say, I think that present them. The first was from a soliwhat he has stated is not a strictly ac- citor at Hull, who stated that he gave a curate or true description of the occur- vote at the last election for that place, but rences of last Session. He will remember that he neither canvassed nor took any acthat measures of great political importance tive part in the election; that he had and difficulty, such as that relating to the neither received nor paid money to any Canada Clergy Reserves, and that mea- one on account of it; that he was not sures of great complication of details, such examined before the Commissioners as to as that relating to the government of India, the commission of bribery; and that he were introduced and carried through Par- was not by any of the witnesses accused liament during the last Session; and I of having committed bribery, and yet his think I can further appeal to him, when I name had been included in the Schedule. say that I do not at this moment recollect He therefore prayed that this Act might not a single case of an important first-class be allowed to pass, and that, if it did, his Bill which was withdrawn from the House name might be expunged. Two of the other of Commons or the House of Lords during petitions were, one from a solicitor, and last year, with one exception, namely, the the other from a merchant and shipowner Education Bill of my noble Friend the of the same place, containing statements Member for the City of London, which to a similar effect, and praying to be heard was withdrawn for the simple reason that by counsel at the bar of the House against it was impossible to bring it into discus- the Bill. The last petition which he had sion until we had overpassed the limits of to present, which was signed by nearly an ordinary Session, and the exhausted 400 persons, stated that in consequence of patience of the House made it absolutely the proclamation of the Commissioners, a necessary that some remission should take general opinion was entertained throughout place. Sir, these matters, which ought not the town of Hull, that those who gave their to be mentioned otherwise than in self-evidence freely and truly would be protectdefence-I trust it is not improper to mention-for, after all, it is impossible altogether to separate, in a question of this kind, the question of the credit of the Government from the question of the credit and character of the House of Commons. It was the House of Commons--it was the feeling of the House of Commonsthat enabled the Government last year to conduct the legislative business of the country; and if, during the present year, the results have been different, I appeal to your sense of justice to consider whether that has been owing so much to carelessness, or neglect, or want of competence, as to that marvellous and profound change which seems to pass upon the temper of the people, and which passes upon the temper of the Legislature, which you may trace every night in every discussion of the Session, when the energies of the country have been drawn upon for a tremendous external struggle, and in being so called have been of necessity diverted from the pacific purposes to which in former years they have been, and to which in future years God grant they may be again directed.

LORD HOTHAM said, that some petitions in relation to one of these measures had been entrusted to him, and though the Government had signified their intention to withdraw the measures to which they had reference, he should feel it his duty to The Chancellor of the Exchequer

ed from all consequences whatever-not only from penal consequences, but from all disabilities and similar consequences. In consequence of this assurance they had given their evidence without hesitation or restraint, and they considered that the contract thus entered into by the Commissioners had been repudiated by Her Majesty's Government by the Bill brought into Parliament. Such a proceeding they considered to be contrary to the first principles of justice, and they prayed to be heard by counsel at the bar of the House against the passing of the Bill.

The order was then read and discharged,
as were also those relating to Maldon
Bribery Prevention Bill and the Barnstaple
Bribery Prevention Bill.

EXCHEQUER BONDS (£6,000,000) BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the circumstance that a portion of these bonds being to be applied to the cancelling of Exchequer bills, and the remainder to the borrowing money, the accounts would be very much complicated, and it would be exceedingly difficult for any one to ascertain the exact state of the public finances, since, if they did not know the exact amount taken for money, they could not

quer bills, and it was now proposed to raise 4,000,000l. more. When the question of the saving banks came before the House, he would be prepared to prove that there had been a considerable loss on the operation of last year, but the calculations were too complicated to go into them at that moment. The power vested in the Chancellor of the Exchequer was so great that it ought not to be exercised without the consent of Parliament.

tell the sum added to the debt. The question he wished to submit was, the absolute necessity that the House should in these bills take some security that these bonds should not be converted into permanent funded debt. During the year 1853, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by means of Exchequer bills and the sale of the savings bank stock, added 1,254,000l. to the permanent funded debt of the country. He sold 778,000l. Three per Cent Stock belonging to the savings banks at prices. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCIIEvarying from 97 to 91, in order to buy Ex- QUER was sorry to say that, under prechequer bills paying 30s. a year. That same sent circumstances, it was impossible for stock had been purchased at prices varying him to answer the appeal addressed to from 97 to 101. There was therefore a him by the hon. Baronet fully; for he considerable loss upon the transaction, spoke within the mark when he said that it which would have to be made up by the would require at least two hours to make country. If the right hon. Gentleman an explanation that would be intelligible of could thus, by a tortuous process, convert the complicated system of powers lodged funded into unfunded debt last year, he in the hands of the Chancellor of the Excould do it again, and some security ought chequer by the existing law, and which the to be taken that he should not repeat the hon. Baronet had briefly, and he thought process. So tortuous was the process by somewhat obscurely, alluded to. All he which this was effected, that he (Sir H. could say was that, in his opinion, those Willoughby) had only been able to convince powers well deserved, and, indeed, he two or three Members of that House that should say required, the deliberate consithis addition to the debt had actually taken deration of the House; and that he should place. The right hon. Gentleman had cri- be very glad if he could find himself in a ticised the conduct of Mr. Pitt for borrow- condition to bring the system under the ing money during the pressure of a war; calm and patient review of the House, with and he (Sir II. Willoughby), therefore, the view, at the same time, of recommend. called upon him to tell the House how he ing to the House the great improvements (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could of which he thought it stood in need; besanction an addition to our funded debt in cause it appeared to him that, in various the fortieth year of peace, and to explain respects, the Finance Minister of this what was his real policy on this subject. country had in many respects too little He would propose the insertion of a clause power in his hands for the good of the to the effect," that no portion of the un-public, whereas, in other respects unfunded debt be converted into funded debt | doubtedly he agreed with the hon. Bawithout the knowledge and consent of Par-ronet-in fact, he was not sure that he liament." In the year 1853, between the months of May and October, a sum of 1,200,000l. belonging to the savings banks was sold, and the proceeds invested in Exchequer bills bearing interest of only a penny a day, and that sum was after-funded debt without the authority of Farwards added to the funded debt. If they were to raise money by increasing the unfunded debt, let them do so, or, if they were to have a loan, let it be a loan in name also. The right hon. Gentleman, as one of the Commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, had a very considerable power vested in him of dealing with the savings-bank stock. He had used it last year to some extent, and there was nothing to prevent his using it again. The unfunded debt at present exceeded 17,000,000l., existing in Exche:

did not go beyond him-he had a great deal too much power, and exercised powers that ought to be greatly restricted. The hon. Baronet had asked him for a pledge that there should be no new creation of

liament. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could go thus far-he could tell the hon. Baronet that he did not anticipate the creation of any funded debt without the authority of Parliament, under the present circumstances of the country, but he should be going far beyond his duty if he were to give him any universal, permanent, and unconditional pledge to that effect. There were circumstances in which it might be an absolute obligation on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to perform processes which would result in the creation of funded debt

in the country banks, or at least in all the branches of the Bank of England. The metropolis was the great centre of the money market, but there was a large amount of capital in the manufacturing districts.

MR. WILLIAMS said that the power lodged in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer of effecting changes in the savings banks money had been complained of in that House a great many years; and no doubt it had at various periods been greatly misapplied and misused. If the right hon. Gentleman would consent to repeal that power, and introduce a clause for the purpose, he believed he would thereby add much to the reputation he had so justly acquired by the reforms and improvements which he had already introduced in the financial system of the country.

position which he made when money was plentiful, and when the change in the money market could not have been foreseen. But he found fault with him for having afterwards paid off the South Sea Stock holders, by taking the balances out of the Exchequer; and in the then state of the money market he ought to have come forward and have reinvested that 8,000,000l. rather than have paid it off under the change of circumstances. He complained of him for not having then come to Parliament and invested the money paid to the South Sea Company. He might have raised the 8,000,000l. on terminable annuities, without making any alteration in the amount of the debt, but simply replacing that which circumstances had obliged him to pay off. The change in the money market defeated him; but he (Mr. Hume) believed that no man could conscientiously say that twelve months ago, Mr. GLYN concurred with his hon. when the plan was before the House, he Friend near him (Mr. Thornely) in the anticipated what had taken place. The opinion that Exchequer bonds, when thoChancellor of the Exchequer was not to roughly understood, would become a fablame for not having foreseen what was vourite source for the employment of almost impossible; he, therefore, did not capital, not only in the metropolis, but in think that he was to blame. The Chan- the country; and he thought there was cellor had stated that he considered his considerable weight in what his hon. Friend powers too extensive; they ought to be had said about having recourse to tenders taken away, and thus future Chancellors in different parts of the kingdom. would be deprived of the power of doing the Chancellor of the Exchequer had harm even unintentionally. No money taken power by this Bill to issue the deought to be borrowed without the consent bentures at 4 per cent. Would it not be of Parliament. The confidence of the expedient, however, to consider if inconmoneyed men would go with the Chan- venience might not possibly arise in the cellor when they found everything done money market if he had two issues of openly. He would find his best course to Exchequer bonds-one at 34 and the other be to act openly and above board. Let at 4 per cent? To make these bonds him not attempt by secret means to out-popular there ought to be an extended reach what were called the moneyed men. They were not to be got the better of. He (Mr. Hume) hoped the Chancellor would never attempt to raise money, either as funded or unfunded debt, without coming to Parliament. If he was in the right, Parliament would support him; if not, he would not, and ought not, to succeed. He hoped the House would take from the Chancellor the power of doing harm.

But

market for them; but the right hon. Gentleman might rely upon it, that if there were two securities of the same form, but of different rates of interest, he would encounter considerable inconvenience on the part of the dealers with regard to the manner in which they would be inclined to deal with them. He could have wished, indeed, that the right hon. Gentleman had issued them all at 4 per cent. He would MR. THORNELY wished to make a take that opportunity of asking the right suggestion with regard to the Exchequer hon. Gentleman whether any measures had bonds. He thought they would become been taken by the Bank of England for favourite securities when better known in the purpose of bringing up, under the the country, as they afforded the same power vested in them by the Act of 1844, Government security as Consols, without the fixed issues of the country to the being subject to the fluctuations. He amount which Parliament thought right to name in that Act? The right hon. Gentleman was aware that the country issues had already fallen off to the extent 20

would suggest that when tenders were called for, they might be received not only in London or at the Bank of England, but VOL. CXXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.]