Government of the present Session had have thought it was the duty of the Go1 attempted to do, he could not say, but he vernment to support. He regretted to hear did not consider that the solution of the that it was the intention of his hon. and so-called religious difficulty was impossible. learned Friend to renew, by another Bill, The people of Scotland now saw that the his attack upon the parochial school sysreal difficulty in the way of the education tem, from which Scotland had derived so scheme was not owing to the religious diffi- much advantage, and he could only say culty so called, but to the peculiar and ex- that such a Bill would receive his most clusive privileges which the Established strenuous opposition. He said this from Church held with regard to these schools. no principle of opposition to education, for The people of Scotland not only saw this, he would be ready to support the learned but even those who might differ from him Lord in any measure that was really calcuwith regard to the amount of religious lated to improve the system of education security in these schools must see that in Scotland, and that was not subversive the day was not far distant when it was of institutions which for 300 years had impossible for them to maintain those ex- conferred blessings on the land. As he clusive privileges; for it was plain that, had already said, he would not oppose the whether Parliament interfered or not, introduction of the present Bill, but would experience would solve the difficulty in suggest the introduction of a clause to spite of them. It had been said through- facilitate the dismissal of improper schoolout the discussions on the late measure, masters, and to empower the granting of that it was intended to serve the purpose pensions to retiring schoolmasters who of, and had been concocted by, the Free were unfitted for duty by age or infirChurch party, in order to put their schools mity. on the national footing. He begged to say that a more unfounded or inexcusable statement it was impossible to conceive; and, with regard to this assertion, he could only say that the "wish was father to the thought," for, as he had stated once and for all, that from the time when he first began to consider the proposition that should be made to the Government, down to the day on which he introduced the measure, he had never directly or indirectly, by himself or any other person, consulted with any of the leaders of the Free Church party.

MR. CUMMING BRUCE said, he did not intend to oppose the introduction of the present Bill; but he regretted that his hon. and learned Friend had thought fit to limit its endurance to so short a time. He should have thought that the fate of the late measure would have convinced his hon. and learned Friend that the success of any similar measure was by no means a certainty, and the parochial schoolmasters would in a short period again find themselves in the same embarrassing position that they now were. He would have preferred that instead of the present, a measure had been introduced to the effect that the existing status of the schoolmaster should have lasted until Parliament should have otherwise determined. He objected to the former Bill of the learned Lord, because it was an attack on the Established Church, which was one of the fundamental institutions of the country, which he should

MR. DUNLOP begged to bear his testimony to the accuracy of the statement of the hon. and learned Lord Advocate, when he denied that the late measure was concocted by the Free Church to relieve that body from the responsibility of their schools. He thought the character of his learned Friend might have saved him from the imputation which such a statement implied; and he thought the character of the Free Church and the sacrifices her ministers had made, might have saved them also from the charge which had been brought against them. He thought a body raising 300,000l. a year to maintain their schools and churches, after having sacrificed all their emoluments as an Established Church, might have been saved from the charge of concocting a scheme for the sake of a paltry amount of some 2,000l. or 3,000l. Had any intercourse taken place between the Government and the Free Church on this question he must have known of it, and he was able to say that no such communications as had been referred to had taken place. The great merit of the Bill, he thought, was its being limited to a short period, because if it should turn out that the attempt to establish a national system of education in Scotland was hopeless, the question then would be, whether, as they were to remain denominational, one denomination, comprising only one-third of the country, should be put on a better footing than any of the others? The establishment of parochial schools having been the spon

taneous work of the peasantry of Scotland, a desire on their part to see that system made national was entitled to the sympathy of English Members, and they also had a claim to the justice of English Members, because he believed the origin of the present dissensions in Scotland might be mainly traced to the legislation of the English Parliament acting in opposition to the voices of the Scotch representatives. He cordially supported the introduction of this Bill.

MR. KINNAIRD thought the conduct of the Lord Advocate, in all his efforts with regard to this subject, showed that he had the deepest possible interest in the welfare of the people of Scotland. He regretted that the former Bill had not been allowed to pass a second reading, in order that those points in it to which objection was taken might have been modified in Committee; but he firmly believed that a Bill still less favourable to the views of hon. Members opposite must finally be passed.

MR. FORBES thought the House, in rejecting the Bill, had decided wisely; and submitted that the speeches of the Lord Advocate, and of hon. Members opposite, exhibited an amount of sectarian animosity which promised a renewal of angry discussion in the next Session.

RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC
REGULATION BILL.

Order of the Day for the House to be put in Committee read.

LORD CAMPBELL said, he deemed it his duty again to enter his protest against this Bill. He had been in hopes that upon further consideration the objections to the Bill which presented themselves to his mind in the first instance would have been obviated when he came to consider it more maturely; but he was sorry to say that the opportunity for reflection had strengthened instead of weakening them. Since he last addressed their Lordships on this subject he had had an opportunity of consulting many of his learned brethren on the bench respecting it. His learned brethren and himself were willing to undertake any duties which the Legislature might impose upon them; they would set an example of obedience to the law, and of respect to the Legislature; but having consulted the Judges at a meeting they had had upon this subject, they were una nimously of opinion that the duties which they were asked to undertake under the provisions of this Bill were not judicial duties; and the great majority of them stated they were not properly competent to perform those duties. That these were not judicial duties he thought there could be no question. Ordinarily, a Judge had to interpret the law, and the law was placed

Bill no law was laid before the Judges which they could interpret or enforce. The code which the Judges had to interpret and enforce under this Bill was stated thus:

MR. NEWDEGATE believed that, as an English Member, he had done his duty in opposing the recent scheme of the learn-before him for that purpose; but by this ed Lord for education in Scotland, because he had been informed that it was to be the forerunner of a system of national education for England. A national system of .education should either be in connection with the Established Church, denominational, or a system acceptable to all denominations; and he had opposed the scheme of the learned Lord because it complied with neither of those provisions.

Leave given. Bill ordered to be brought in by the Lord Advocate, Lord John Russell, and Viscount Palmerston.

The House adjourned at One o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, May 30, 1854.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS-1a Middlesex Indus.
trial Schools; Consolidated Fund (£8,000,000)
(No. 2); Public Statues; Gaming-Houses;
Legislative Council (Canada); Encumbered
Estates (West Indies).
2a Prisoners Removal.

3a and passed-Manning the Navy; Navy Pay,
&c.; Second Common Law Procedure, 1854.
Mr. Dunlop

"That every railway company, canal company, and railway and canal company, shall afford ail reasonable facilities for the receiving and forwarding of traffic upon and from the several railways and canals belonging to or worked by such com panies respectively, and for the return of car riages, trucks, boats, and other vehicles; and no such company shall make or give any undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to or in favour of any particular person or company, or any particular description of traffic in any respect whatsoever; nor shall any such company subject any particular person or company, or any parti cular description of traffic, to any undue or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage in any respect whatsoever; and every railway company and canal company, and railway and canal com pany, having or working railways or canals which form part of a continuous line of railway or canal, or railway and canal communication, or which have the terminus, station, or wharf of the one near the terminus, station, or wharf of the other, shall afford all due and reasonable facilities for receiving and forwarding all the traffic arriving

been a more desirable plan than the one now under consideration. Having said this much, he had only to observe that it was not his intention to move any Amendment to the Bill. If their Lordships should be pleased to impose on him duties for which he felt himself incompetent, he would endeavour to perform them to the best of his ability; but, he must again say, these were not judicial duties, and that they ought not to be imposed on the Judges.

That was not a code which the Judges could interpret; it left them altogether to exercise their discretion as to what they THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, he might deem reasonable. They were, be- could not but think, in spite of the remarks sides, to form a just judgment on all mat- which had just fallen from his noble and ters of complaint relating to railway ma- learned Friend, that if their Lordships nagement that might come before them; should give their favourable attention to and they were to lay down a code of regu- this Bill, and if it should pass into law, lations for the government of railway com- there would be no practical difficulty found panies. The Judges, and himself among in its application to the evils which it was them, felt themselves incompetent to de- framed to remedy. His noble and learned cide on these matters. He had spent a Friend (Lord Campbell) had said their great part of his life in studying the laws Lordships would be entering upon an anoof his country; but he confessed he was malous course if they imposed on the wholly unacquainted with railway manage- Judges duties which were not judicial. ment, as well as the transit of goods by To some extent that was true; but his boats; he knew not how to determine noble and learned Friend must recollect what was a reasonable fare, what was un- that their Lordships had now to deal with due delay, or within what time trucks and a very anomalous state of things. He boats should be returned. He believed he must remember that they themselves as had correctly represented the feelings of passengers, and their horses, goods, and all his learned brethren on the bench in commodities, were not now conveyed along reference to this bill, with one exception, the Queen's highways as formerly, but whom he mentioned with honour, respect, upon highways belonging to individuals; and reverence-he meant the learned Chief and that had given rise to enactments calJustice of the Court of Common Pleas, culated to meet this new state of things, than whom there was no Judge on the and very different from those which forbench more zealous or more efficient; and merly prevailed. The question now was that learned Judge, whilst he agreed in whether anything could be suggested that thinking that these were not judicial duties, was likely to render this mode of travelling had no doubt that his brethren on the bench more satisfactory to the public. His noble would be able to work the Bill properly. and learned Friend had said these were He (Lord Campbell) would humbly sug-questions which ought to have been congest that if the discharge of the duties imposed by the Bill should devolve on the Court of Common Pleas, where there were Judges as learned and efficient as ever sat in Westminster Hall, it would give satis faction to the country; at the same time, however, he did not propose to throw on other Judges a task which ought not to have been imposed on any of them. They should have a lay tribunal for the decision of questions of the nature contemplated by the Bill, and not one composed of the Judges. It had been proposed in the House of Commons last year, that there should be a department of the Government to which matters of this kind should be referred; and, he thought, that would have

fided to what he called a lay tribunal--and,
looking at the subject theoretically, he
entirely concurred in that opinion. But
his noble and learned Friend could not
have forgotten that they had been already
confided to a lay tribunal.
There was a
Board of that kind, presided over by a
very able man, in existence until recently,
and, not having given satisfaction, it was
abandoned consensu omnium.
He (the
Lord Chancellor) had at first suggested
that the party complaining should bring
his action under the sanction of the Board
of Trade; but it was objected to his pro-
posal that it was the machinery of a lawyer,
and not of a practical man. What did this
Bill propose? Why, that in case there

"47, Eaton Square, May 25. "My dear Lord Stanley,-I have no objection to your stating in the House of Lords and elsewhere, if you please, that in my opinion the Railway Traffic Bill may be worked by the Judges, It will if they will take the trouble to work it. see a more satisfactory way of settling questions certainly give them some trouble, but, as I do not in which the public have a deep interest, the Judges ought not, in my opinion, to decline the duty, merely because it will be difficult. I ought to add that the majority of the Judges seem to character, and ought not to be imposed upon think that the proposed work is not of a judicial them."

Such was the opinion of the Chief Justice, and he had no doubt the Bill would work well.

were arrangements made by two railway Bill to the Court of Common Pleas. He companies which were inconvenient-and had received a letter from Chief Justice sometimes such arrangements were inten-. Jervis on the subject, which he would read tionally inconvenient-any person might to their Lordships:— make a complaint to one of the Judges, who, if he was satisfied that, primá facie, there was ground for complaint, might refer the matter to an engineer or some other competent person to determine what was best to be done. The railway companies were perfectly satisfied with that provision; and if there was a prospect of its affording to both persons concerned a practical relief in an inexpensive and effectual mode, why should it not be attempted? His noble and learned Friend had said the Judges were perfectly unacquainted with these matters; but his noble and learned Friend, must not forget that these were questions which already frequently came under the consideration of the Judges and juries, and the functions imposed upon the Judges by LORD CAMPBELL said, that it would this Bill would be much the same thing as be a mistake to suppose that the Judges those he now fulfilled when trying a cause wished to shirk taking upon themselves before a jury. In the latter case he had the trouble which the Bill would impose to sum up the evidence and explain the upon them. All that he intended to conlaw to the jury; and what would he have tend for was, that the duties were not to do under this Act? He would hear the strictly of a judicial nature, and ought to evidence, and having heard would have to be discharged by some other tribunal. apply the law accordingly. They had now to do through the medium of a jury what under this Bill they would have to do alone; and he (the Lord Chancellor) believed they would find no sort of difficulty. There was an apprehension, doubtless, in the minds of some of the Judges, that they would feel some difficulty in undertaking the duties sought to be imposed on them; but the learned Chief Justice of the Court, of Common Pleas had stated to him that he saw, practically, no difficulty at all in the matter. With respect to the suggestion made by his noble and learned Friend, he (the Lord Chancellor) did not see any difficulty in confining the cases arising under the provisions of the Bill to the Court of Common Pleas, especially as it was not so overburdened with business as the other courts were. He thought it would be a useful amendment to the Bill to confine the business to that Court; and if, on a trial, it should not be found to work satisfactorily, it would be the duty of the Government to devise something better. On the whole, he was of opinion that this was likely to be a very useful

measure.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, he had no objection to the proposal of confining the actions to be brought under this The Lord Chancellor

EARL FITZWILLIAM said, he rejoiced to think that these questions were likely to be referred to one of the Judges, at least, who would undertake their consideration con amore; because there could be nothing more unwise on the part of the Legislature than to impose duties upon a body of men who were not likely to discharge them cheerfully and willingly. He entertained a very decided opinion, however, that questions of this kind could never be satisfactorily settled except by a department of the Government specially provided for that purpose. With respect to the observation of his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, that a department to which such questions were wont to be referred had been abandoned consensu omnium, be begged to call to his noble and learned Friend's recollection that it was abandoned consensu omnium because at that period the railway interest was particularly strong. As railway matters were now conducted, it was clearly necessary that we should have a Board who would listen to the complaints of the public and have something like an autocratic power to remedy them. Bill certainly afforded no remedy for the existing evils, for the railway directors would snap their fingers at, and entirely disregard it.

This

Report of Amendments to be received Parliaments, being the agents of the indion Thursday next.

Order of the Day for the Third Reading and which the noble Duke said that he did read.