THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, he would suggest that the object would be satisfactorily attained, and the very desirable principle upon which the clause was framed secured, by giving the privilege to all those who were actually engaged, more or less, in the great business and end of the University, by inserting the words, "residents qualified in respect of study and teaching. The addition of such words would make the clause comprehensive enough to include all who contributed anything to the object and purpose of the University.

go back to the old principle, which was more
likely to give satisfaction and to ensure
the smooth and easy working of the Bill.

MR. BLACKETT said, he concurred with the views of the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and hoped he would adhere to the proposed alteration in the clause. It was his conviction that it would work well.

every

or two.

SIR THOMAS ACLAND said, he quite agreed with the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth (Mr. R. Palmer). The new governing power should, as far as possible, include influential class in the UniHe versity, so that it could not be said that it was confined to any one therefore suggested that the provisions should be extended to all non-resident By this means, when those members. members returned to the University, from time to time, they would exercise large influence, and bring the benefit of past expe rience to bear upon the actual state of things.

who passed through the University became working members of the Church of England; why should they be excluded, who could bring to bear upon it the weight of their practical knowledge of the work of the Ministry? With regard to the chaplains of colleges, there was great force in the argument that they represented the eleemosynary principle, and their presence must be of great use in relation to the wants and feelings of the class who had been assisted in their education. He desired to see every class in the University represented.

MR. ROUNDELL PALMER said, he would put it to the Committee whether it was not complicating the Bill, and introducing invidious and ungenerous distinctions, to exclude the smaller classes, whose disqualification for taking part in the business of the University, he must say, had not been established to his satisfaction. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the MR. HENLEY said, he did not think Exchequer had narrowed the classes of those residents qualified in respect of study the views expressed on this question by by excluding the parochial clergy and chap- the Chancellor of the Exchequer were With sound. They would leave the Act open to Half the persons lains of colleges from Convocation. respect to the former, he thought that a loose construction. they might be usefully introduced, as being a distinct class from the non-parochial clergy living in colleges. As to the latter, he could not agree in the reason It was said assigned for their exclusion. that they represented the eleemosynary element, and that they were disqualified by that circumstance. Now, he thought that the elecmosynary element ought to be represented in the University. Independently of this principle, to which he attached importance, the chaplains of colleges filled most important and honourable offices--offices which had relation to the ends of the University. On these grounds he contended that the introduction of these THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, the two classes into the governing body could not be mischievous, whilst it might be use- Bill, as it now stood, included all officers of ful. If harmonious action were desired, the University, all persons engaged in tuiAll it would be far better to include all the re- tion in the most general sense, and all persidents, and exclude none; but if a large sons engaged in the discipline of it. number were excluded besides chaplains persons who were bona fide teachers were and parochial clergy, a large proportion of ineluded. He could perceive no element or fellows of colleges must be among them-condition that was excluded. With regard those who were not expected to take out to the two classes proposed to be excluded, certificates of study. He did not think he must observe, in relation to the parothese fellows were unworthy to become chial clergy, that simple residence in that members of Convocation. Whether they took out certificates of study or not they were worthy of the franchise, and he demurred to the principle involved in the proposed change. He would much rather YOL. CXXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

The wider the representation, the greater the efficiency of the University.

character in Oxford gave them no connection with the University. They had no connection with it necessarily, and they were not within the rules implied by the institution of the University. As to the

II

MR. DRUMMOND said, he had always deemed it to be a great anomaly in the management of the University that the chaplains should be held to be an inferior class. That, however, was practically the case. In fact, in consequence of their poverty, they were not looked upon as in a position to associate with gentlemen. As an instance of what the operation of the clause under these considerations would be, he might observe that it would exclude, if passed as it then stood, the son of his hon. Friend opposite (Sir T. Acland), one of the first physicians in Oxford, from a right to be a member of the governing body of the University.

chaplains to colleges, he concurred that MR. IIILDYARD said, if the hon. and the eleemosynary element was necessary learned Solicitor General was right in the in the governing body; but he submitted opinion which he had expressed, that to that it would be sufficiently represented be a member of Congregation ought to be there without the inclusion of these a distinction, he was entitled to ask upon classes. what ground, by excluding those whom it was admitted this clause would strike out, they undertook to pronounce them unworthy of such distinction? He had heard but two reasons assigned. It was said that a portion of the persons excluded were parochial clergy; but he would bring to the recollection of the Committee that some of the best bishops on the bench had been found, like Cincinnatus at the plough, discharging the duties of parish priests. With respect to the chaplains of colleges, and the allusion which had been made, in connection with their case, to the recipients of eleemosynary education, he would beg to remind the Committee that in the University of Cambridge a very large body of the most distinguished men in the University had risen from that very class. It used to be held that every man was entitled to a vote, unless it could be shown that he was unfit to exercise it; but now hon. Gentlemen were for excluding every one who could not make out a clear right and title by the most indisputable testimony. it worth their while, for the sake of excluding so small a body, to plant the germ of future dissent? If they wished their new constitution to work harmoniously, they should admit every gentleman who had passed through the University, had acquired a degree, and, from one circumstance or another, was resident within it, to exercise his share in determining how the University should be governed.

MR. J. G. PHILLIMORE said, that the proposed exclusions were both ungenerous and offensive, and he hoped they would not be passed. Under them the poet Gray would have been excluded from the governing body; and if the clause was carried, as proposed, such instances would occur over and over again.

MR. HORSMAN said, he must submit that at no time could it have been contemplated to include the two classes now under discussion. It was not, however, for the Government to prove their disqualification; it was for the other side to prove their qualification for the privilege. The Government, in his opinion, had put the whole case upon an intelligible principle, when they said that everybody actually connected with education should be included. This established some distinct relation to the University. Now, in what relation did the parochial clergy stand to the University? They had no relation to it except that of mere residence in the town; and being merely casual residents, they could have no claim to the privilege. As to the college chaplains, the question was not whether having received eleemosynary assistance was a disqualification, but whether that principle was not already represented. He contended that it was, by several members who had received their education by that means. No qualification could be sounder than that which had been adopted by the Government-that those who took part in the government of the University should stand in some function or other in relation to its studies.

The Solicitor General

Was

The

MR. LABOUCHERE said, he was inclined to vote for the Amendment. parochial clergy of Oxford must have a very good knowledge of what went on in the University, and great sympathy with it, and for these reasons would make very useful members of this proposed Congregation. With respect to the chaplains of colleges, he should be very glad if placing them in this position might have a tendency to put an end to that which, when he was at Oxford, had made a very painful impression on his mind-the ungenerous system of proscription-for he could call it by no other name-to which the servitors were subject, the servitors being the class from which the college chaplains were generally derived. He thought that the qualifications proposed by the clause would be found inconvenient and complicated;

and he saw no practical danger and great practical good in allowing all residents to be members.

to alter these circumstances; and he hoped, for the sake of the University itself, that such a state of things as his right hon. LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, it seemed Friend had described would not be very to him, that, although the practical effect long continued. But he was unable to of the proposed Amendment would not be admit that this was a reason why the colconsiderable, there was a difference of lege chaplains should form part of this principle between that and the clause as body unless they were engaged in teachit stood, which ought to have some weight ing. And he thought that some other in the discussion. The difference of prin- means might be found of raising the class ciple was this-that what the Government referred to, besides that which was now proposed was to give the power of election, proposed. The principle upon which the and of taking part in the regulation of clause was framed was a very clear one. the University, to those who were en- It was to give the legislation of the Unigaged in the proper business of the University to those who were engaged in the versity the business of teaching and business of the University, and who were study. Now that appeared to him to be a acquainted with all its affairs. The words very important distinction, because what which the Government proposed to add they were proposing by this Bill to do was "engaged in teaching or study" would to reform the University of Oxford, and include all who had a fair claim to be into reform it for the purposes of education, cluded; and, although he did not think Now, whatever might be said with respect the adoption of the Amendment would to the clergy resident in Oxford, or the very much change the character of the chaplain of colleges, there was no question Bill, he was sure that upon principle it whatever as to their character or ability would be much more consistent to leave it involved in the present discussion. It was as it now stood. simply a question with reference to their fitness to perform a particular duty, regarding them as a part of the legislature of a place intended to be a place of education. Now, looking at the matter in that point of view, he confessed he did not think that the resident clergy of Oxford had any immediate connection, as such, with the teaching of the University. The clergy of London were a very distinguished body of men; there had at all times been among them some of the most distinguished clergymen of this country; and according to our present mode of travelling it would be exceedingly easy for them to go from London to Oxford, so that they might very well give their votes there, but no question had been raised as to their being allowed to do so, because they had nothing to do with the teaching of the University, and he did not see that a vote ought to be given on account of the circumstance of residence at the place where education was to take place. With respect to the chaplains of colleges, and to the observations which had been made by his right hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Labouchere), he considered it a reproach to the University that there should be any circumstances existing tending to degrade men who attended the studies of the University, and whose minds and feelings were as sensitive as their own, and to keep them in an inferior position. He should be very glad

MR. WALPOLE said, he would admit that the principle was important, but he thought the noble Lord had very much narrowed it. As he understood the matter, the Congregation would have power to make Amendments in all the Statutes proposed by the Hebdomadal Council, not only with respect to tuition, but with reference to other matters in which the University was greatly interested. Now, if that were true, he thought it a great principle to be established, that they should bring to bear, on so small a body as the Hebdomadal Council, as great an amount of influence as possible, from members who took an interest in the affairs of the University generally, as much as the tutors, who were specially engaged in teaching. No doubt, if this were carried out to the full extent, it would include all the members of Convocation. Why, then, was it proposed to limit it to the resident members? Because they knew what was going on, and all the circumstances connected with the case to be decided, and could not be brought up to give a party vote, and to interfere with the decision which had been arrived at by those upon the spot. That being the case, they ought not to exclude any members resident in the University, because these must be supposed to take as much interest in the affairs of the University as those who were engaged in teaching. Thinking, therefore, that the

Mostyn, hon. T. E. M. L. Evelyn, W. J.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H. Cecil, Lord R.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that he proposed to add a proviso to this clause, in consequence of

SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTE said,

He

the Resolution to which the Committee had come on a former evening. Accord- that this clause provided for the due pubing to the Bill as it originally stood, all lication in Congregation of "Statutes' the three classes of which the Hebdomadal Council was to be composed were to be elected by the same constituency. The Committee had, however, resolved that the heads of houses and the professors should elect their own representatives at the board, and that being so, he thought they ought not also to take part in the election of representatives of the third class-members of Convocation, and thereby exercise a double privilege. He should, therefore, move the addition of these words at the end of the clause

"Provided that the persons who shall from time to time be included under the second and seventh divisions hereinbefore mentioned as Heads

of Colleges and Halls, and as Professors, shall not be entitled to vote in the election by the Congregation of the members of the Hebdomadal

Council."

MR. HENLEY said, he did not know that there was any objection to the insertion of these words, but the right hon. Gentleman ought to have given notice of a proposition of this kind, so that the Committee might have an opportunity of seeing its bearing.

made by the Hebdomadal Council. thought, however, the word "Statutes " was not sufficiently extensive, and he, therefore, proposed to add the words "or other act or ordinance requiring the consent of Convocation." He also doubted whether the proviso reserving the present powers of Convocation would be sufficient to invest them with the new powers created by this Act, and he, therefore, proposed to add at the end of the clause, and if accepted by Congregation shall be afterwards submitted to Convocation for final adoption, as a Statute, Act, or Ordinance of the University.'

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, he would not oppose the first Amendment of the hon. Baronet, though he believed it to be unnecessary; but he must object to the latter.

MR. HENLEY said, he should be sorry to see the proposed alteration accepted, since it would have the effect of imposing It was as a check upon the political franchise exercised by this body corporate. though the inhabitants of a town, who wished to petition Parliament, were to be prevented by the town council, and told that they should not do so.

This was no

but it

MR. HORSMAN said, the proposed addition was the natural result of the Motion which had been carried the other night, and ought, therefore, to be support-academical question affecting the position of the " aristocracy of intellect, ed by the Committee. was simply a question of a political right and franchise. He feared it would give to Congregation the power of preventing the University from petitioning on any subjects on which the opinions of Congregation were at variance with those of Convocation.

MR. MILES said, he would suggest that in a complicated Bill of this kind they ought first to go through the clauses, and then proceed to consider the Amendments. It was totally impracticable at a moment's notice to get up a discussion of this kind.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, the Government would certainly not wish to do anything which might be considered to take the Committee by surprise, and the proposed addition should not, therefore, be pressed now, but should be printed and laid before the Committee.

MR. HENLEY said, he was by no means prepared to say that he opposed the Motion. It might be a fair and right one. All he said was, that the Committee ought to have notice of it.

MR. WALPOLE would suggest that the proposed proviso had better be incorporated in the section which related to the six members of Convocation.

Proviso postponed; Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 19 (Promulgation of Statutes in Congregation).

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he did not think the right hon. Gentleman took the right view of the case.

But he confessed that he doubted very much whether that was to be regarded as a practical restriction upon the privileges of the University. The fact was, that Convocation was now very much fettered in its power of expressing an opinion, for it could only debate in Latin, and had no power to suggest amendments on any proposition laid before it. It was proposed to constitute Congregation on a pretty broad basis, including all those who took part in the business of the University. To them would be given the power of discussing in English, and of entertaining amendments, and, therefore, he thought that upon the whole the privileges of the

now