Now, let their Lordships consider what | a religious, and not a political question; would be the effect of such a provision. but, in the case of the Roman Catholic His noble and learned Friend had, indeed, Church, it was almost impossible to define obscurely anticipated the objection. He what were religious and what were politi(Lord Lyndhurst) would ask their Lord- cal questions. They knew, from frequent ships to consider the case of the Roman discussions in that House, that the Roman Catholics of Ireland and of this country. Catholic religion could not, in practice, be He must remind their Lordships that he carried on from day to day without conwas not objecting to a Bill framed accord- stant communications with the See of ing to the law of the United States to Rome, without bulls or rescripts issuing which his noble and learned Friend had from the Court of Rome-from the Soreferred, but he was objecting to the form vereign Pontiff-with respect to which and extent of the Bill now before them. communications must of necessity conAs an illustration of the consequences of stantly take place. The consequence this measure, he would direct their Lord- must be, that the Bill of his noble and ships' attention to occurrences which had learned Friend, in its present form, would taken place two or three years ago, when create a sensation of the strongest and Her Majesty's Government established most unfavourable kind among the Roman certain colleges in Ireland, the object of Catholics, both in this country and in Irewhich was the united education of Eng- land. Everybody knew that the noble lish and Irish, of Protestant and Roman and learned Lord himself was such an Catholic students. Conscientious scruples avowed and unflinching advocate for freewere entertained with regard to that mea- dom of discussion in religious matters, sure by the Roman Catholic hierarchy of that there was no danger of his intentions Ireland, by the Roman Catholic clergy, and being misinterpreted; otherwise he (Lord by many laymen, and a mission was de- Lyndhurst) had no doubt it would have spatched to Rome to ascertain the opinion have been supposed that his noble and of the See of Rome upon the subject. The learned Friend, in a general Bill of this opinion of the See of Rome confirmed their kind, containing such sweeping clauses, doubts, and they acted accordingly. Now entertained some insidious design hostile this case came precisely within the terms to the religious liberty of the Roman Caof the noble and learned Lord's Bill. A tholics and their freedom with respect to mission, composed of individuals repre- religious worship. Some persons might senting other individuals, namely, the suppose that this restriction was effectually clergy and laity of the Roman Catholic modified by a clause in the Bill which propersuasion in Ireland-proceeded to Rome vided that licences might be obtained for to hold a correspondence with a foreign communications of this kind from the Potentate-the head of the Roman Ca- Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; tholic Church-with respect to the acts of but those knew little of the feelings of the Government of this country. What Roman Catholics who supposed that they was the result? It was that the Pope would allow any interference of a Prodeclared his opinion to be adverse to the testant Secretary of State to check or measure attempted to be carried into control, in any degree or in any manner, effect by Her Majesty's Government. their communications with the head of Now, every person engaged in that mis- their Church. As the Bill at present sion, every person who sanctioned or au- stood, therefore, and unless it was altered thorised it-for in misdemeanors all were to a very great extent, he regarded it as principals-would, according to the Bill open, on this ground, to very strong obbefore the House, have been guilty of a jections. But they must discuss this Bill misdemeanor, and be subject to fine and as it now stood, and not as his noble and imprisonment. He (Lord Lyndhurst) must learned Friend might remodel it; and if not for a moment be understood as ap- their Lordships would do him the favour proving of the conduct of the Roman Ca- to recollect what were stated to be the tholics on that occasion; but, however he general terms of the Bill, they would find might disapprove of their acts, he was that scarcely any transaction could take satisfied that the attempt, by any penal place with foreign States by private perenactments, to restrain that species of in- sons without involving such parties in the tercourse would be attended with most penalties and pains of the measure. There dangerous consequences. The noble and were many commercial establishments in learned Lord might say that that was this country connected not only with dif Lord Lyndhurst ferent parts of Europe, but with America; | left to the interference of the diplomatic and it frequently happened that there Ministers or agents of the country, the were acts of State affecting the interest consequence would be long formal comof those establishments; but if an indi- plications extending through many pages vidual member of one of those establish- of blue books, and which would be ultiments were to make any representation to mately cast aside and forgotten. But the Government in consequence of such what was the case in the instance to acts as affecting his interests, he would which he had referred? A strong popular come within the provisions of the Bill. feeling was aroused, the deputation was Again, newspapers are circulated on the listened to, and attended with good effect. Continent; suppose articles to be publish- He appealed to the noble Earl then sitting ed in the Times, for instance, commenting upon the cross-benches (the Earl of on foreign Powers, and the circulation in Shaftesbury), who would tell their Lordconsequence prohibited, the agent for the ships that it was mainly in consequence of newspaper applies immediately for a re- that private interposition that the punishvocation of the order, representing that ment inflicted upon those two individuals the article complained of had been misin- was ultimately relaxed. Would their Lordterpreted, that would bring him within ships wish, therefore, to pass a Bill which the provisions of his noble and learned would have the effect of restraining or Friend's Bill. Had he not, therefore, a preventing such applications as these, and right to complain of the Bill, and the say that parties interfering in such cases consequences to which it would lead? should be subjected to the penalties of a But he would refer to another case, which misdemeanor? He believed that in the he thought his noble and learned Friend early period of the establishment of the might say ought to be embraced within the Society for the Suppression of the Slave measure, and that was a case which would Trade missions of this description to the be fresh within their Lordships' recollec- different States of Europe issued from tion. An act of injustice, and cruelty time to time, and laid the foundation of had been committed by a foreign Govern- that feeling which ultimately led to the ment on its own subjects-which was almost entire abolition of that abominable the case in Tuscany; two of its Pro- traffic, but which under such a Bill as testant subjects, for an offence against this would have been illegal. With rethe prevailing law of religion, in conse- spect to the licence of the Secretary of quence of reading some passages of Scrip- State, he thought such an arrangement ture in private to particular friends, were open to great objection. In the first sentenced to severe punishment and place, in granting such licence, the Sewhat was the consequence? Deputations cretary of State would have to encounter from different Protestant States appeared considerable difficulty, he would require a at Florence for the purpose of remon- most minute account of what was intended strating against this act; one deputation to be done, and of the language that was proceeded from this country, as the repre- to be used; every particular must be sentative of a body called the Protestant known before he could grant the licence; Alliance, and at the head of that depu- and after obtaining this information, if tation was a noble Lord, a Member of he were to grant the licence, what would this House, distinguished for his strong be the consequence? Why, that he would Protestant feeling. When they arrived make himself responsible for all the acts at Florence, they were not admitted to done in virtue of that licence. Did their the Grand Duke, but they had a confe- Lordships imagine that any Secretary of rence with his Minister; the address was State would wish to be placed in so awkread, the remonstrance was heard; but, ward and so responsible a position as if this Bill had been in force at the would be thus occasioned ? His noble time to which he was now referring, every and learned Friend had referred, among person connected with that deputation other cases, to the absurd pilgrimage of would, as a matter of course, have been three respectable gentlemen of the Society brought within its provisions, and have of Friends to St. Petersburg, where they been considered guilty of a misdemea- were received with the courtesy usual with nor. Was it meant to restrain acts of the eminent personage at the head of that this description? Very possibly it might Government, and after some cajolery, and be said that such matters ought to be no doubt a considerable degree of private It was to offences of this description that the Act of the United States had reference, and that measure bore no resemblance whatever to the Bill of his noble and learned Friend. So conscious, indeed, was his noble and learned Friend of the defects of his measure, that in the course of his address he entreated their Lordships to pass this Bill, on the understanding that it should go to a Select Committee, in order that such objections as had been pointed out might be obviated. He had said he entertained doubts respecting the measure of his noble and learned Friend; the ground of those doubts he had now stated to the House for their consideration. In his opinion, this was a subject upon which if legislation was necessary, it ought to be conducted by the Government, and he was ready to leave it in their hands. If they thought the Bill should be read a second time on the complete understanding and promise of his noble and learned Friend that it should be contracted in its operation and extent, he should not oppose it. He had felt it his duty to make these observations, and he left the matter entirely in the hands of their Lordships. He saw that the noble Earl to whom he had alluded (the Earl of Shaftesbury) was now present; he did not know whether he accompanied the deputation; but, if he did not, he sanctioned it, and he (Lord Lyndhurst) wished to know what was his opinion as to its effect. ridicule, were dismissed and returned to mitted? THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY said, he was appointed a member of the deputation, but was not able to fulfil the duties; but he was chairman of the committee. He believed he might say that the representations of that deputation had a very material effect upon the Government of the Grand Duke of Tuscany, and upon the minds of the great mass of the people of Italy at large. He did not think that the present measure, taking it altogether, was a useful one, or that the cases that had been cited by his noble and learned Friend were of sufficient importance to justify it; for, although they might be very strong, at the same time no very serious consequences resulted from them; and he asked the House whether greater mischief might not have resulted from punishing those three gentlemen, who, at all events, acted up to their conscientious convictions? Supposing the three gentlemen of the Society of Friends, who cer tainly went out under circumstances that the House must almost wonder at their heroism in at the time seeking an interview with the Emperor of Russia, bad been tried for misdemeanor and were how languishing in prison, would that have been a desirable thing? He must say that there were in the Bill now proposed provisions for limiting what he considered the inherent right of every Englishman. By the present measure we were not to be allowed to address any foreign Government on account of any act done by that Government. It did not confine itself to affairs between the English Government and any other Government-it did not say with respect to any public negotiation; but it prohibited an Englishman from interposing in any way whatever with respect to the act of any independent nation. Let them take the case of the Madiai. A deputation on behalf of the Madiai, with Lord Roden at its head, left this country for the purpose of representing the Protestant Alliance at Florence, and, through the Protestant Alliance, a very large proportion of the Protestants of England. They went only for the purpose of using intervention with the Grand Duke of Tuscany, and of praying him to be good enough to remove the pressure of the law from the poor creatures who had been thrown into prison simply because they had been detected reading the Bible. He held that in such a case every Protestant Englishman had a right to interfere with a foreign Government on behalf of his co-religionists, and in his opinion that right could not be taken away from him, except by an act of intolerable tyranny. He contended that, if a Government chose to oppress any of its Protestant subjects, they had the right of interposing their private representation to induce it to remove the oppression under which their suffering co-religionists laboured. He believed this Bill, if it were passed into a law, would make it utterly impossible for any interference of the kind to take place without the previous consent of the Secretary of State. That consent he would not submit to ask if he felt it his duty before God and man to interpose with the Sovereign of a foreign country on behalf of some co-religionist suffering unjustly; he would not go to the Secretary of State and say, "Will you give me permission to interpose? nor would he go to the Court of that Potentate and ask permission of our representative there. There were other cases which had occurred in his time, in which it was not necessary to mention the names of the parties; but it had been his duty in two several instances to address, in one case, the Prime Minister of a foreign country on behalf of a coreligionist, requesting him to be good enough to relieve the law which pressed so heavily on their rights and privileges; and it had been his duty to communicate in another instance with a crowned head, preferring the same prayer, and imploring the Sovereign to recollect the rights of Christians, and relieve the pressure of the law which deprived them of their just rights respecting the profession of their faith. In those instances, had this act been law, either he should have been prevented from interfering, or, if he had persisted in doing so, he should have committed an offence, and have exposed himself to the penalties provided by the measure. He considered this Bill a great infringement of their Christian rights and privileges, and, with all due respect to his noble and learned Friend, he must say that in defence of Protestant rights and the rights and feelings of Englishmen, he should oppose it by all the means in his power. THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH said, his noble Friend who spoke last had certainly a fair right to interfere on behalf of his co-religionists. He, however, hoped that the noble Earl would be willing to grant the same right to members of other creeds that he claimed for himself. He apprehended that such a right belonged equally to the Greek as to the Protestant, and that the Greeks in Russia or any other country would have an equal right to interfere with the Turkish Government on behalf of the Greek Christians the subjects of the Sultan. A considerable amount of practical inconvenience might arise from extending these Protestant natural rights to the Greeks. He thought it right to notice the inconvenient extent to which the principle advocated by the noble Earl might be carried, without meaning to take part in the discussion upon the Bill itself. THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: I might have used too strong a word when I said we had a right to interfere. What I meant was, that I thought we had a right of private solicitation, and a right of prayer. In my opinion, every Greek in the Russian dominions would have a perfect right to communicate, personally if he could, or by letter if he could not, with the Sultan, in order to induce him to respect them. In order to make out his case he the rights of conscience and give full religious liberty to his Greek subjects. THE BISHOP OF OXFORD said, he entirely agreed with what had fallen from the noble Earl who spoke last (the Earl of Shaftesbury) upon the subject, and he wished to call their Lordships' attention to a particular instance in which it seemed to him that this abridgment of the liberty of Englishmen would have greatly injured the cause of civilisation and humanity; and that was at the time when representations with a view to do away with the slave trade, and solicitations on behalf of the oppressed African race, were made to foreign States by persons who took an interest in the abolition of slavery. The noble Earl had said he would not submit to ask the leave of the Secretary of State before he made such representations as he contemplated to foreign Powers. Changing very slightly the form of the noble Earl's words, he would at once adopt them; for it seemed to him that it was not so much that one would not submit to ask such a permission of the Secretary of State, as that it was taking away a remarkably useful and convenient mode in which such representations might be made in an unofficial manner. There might be a great many occasions for representations such as those alluded to by the noble Earl in which it would be singularly inconvenient for the Government of the country to come forward and make a specific Government representation, or to give other parties permission to make it for it might be said that such a representation was a national one because the Government had adopted it. But such representation might be made most usefully and efficiently by parties who did not undertake to represent the English nation, but who professed to represent parties entertaining strong opinions, and who, having strong Christian sympathies with others, might desire to express that sympathy, and might desire in an unauthorised and unofficial manner to address the Sovereign of another State, in behalf of the objects of their sympa thies. LORD BEAUMONT had listened with great attention to the noble and learned Lord who had brought in the Bill, in order that he might have the pleasure of supporting it; but the speech of his noble and learned Friend, instead of removing his objections, had only tended to confirm thought the noble and learned Lord was bound, in the first place, to state what were the evils which he intended to remove, and to illustrate those evils by instances; but although he went over numerous instances, from the time of the Empress Catherine down to the recent journey of Quakers to St. Petersburg, he did not point out the evil resulting from one single case. On the contrary, the noble and learned Lord left an impression on his (Lord Beaumont's) mind, that in not one single instance of these violations of propriety-of these indications and assumptions of power on the part of individuals professing to represent the opinions of the masses, had he shown the result to have been injurious to the country. Far from that, he (Lord Beaumont) believed that, in every instance, it only brought ridicule upon the individuals engaged, and, instead of doing harm, actually did good, inasmuch as it showed up and exposed the absurdity of the parties who assumed the power of representing any influential parties in this country. If his noble and learned Friend had shown that, in consequence of any of these interferences, great negotiations had been prevented, or great arrangements between nations had been interrupted, or that any evil had resulted from such proceedings, then he (Lord Beaumont) should say there was some ground for legislating, and he might have been induced to entertain the Bill with favour. What was the next course taken by the noble and learned Lord? He (Lord Campbell) stated in the next case that this Bill might be supposed to interfere with what was useful. noble and learned Lord seemed himself to be fully aware of the great advantages which resulted from individuals, representing certain influential parties in this country, having, in their private capacity, intercourse and communication with sovereigns and potentates abroad. The case of the Greeks had been suggested. Now he (Lord Beaumont) went the full length of saying, that every Greek had a right to appeal to the Sultan in regard to any matter which affected his individual feelings; and that every Mahomedan possessed a similar right to appeal to the English Government in behalf of every body of Mahomedans who were under our sway in Asia. The noble and learned Lord appeared to be fully conscious of the objections which would be urged against his The |