had not taken objection to the Bill on reli- | been left out. Then he would recommend his gious grounds, though on that score he right hon. and learned Friend to reconsider felt that the Bill must either be latitudina- the 27th clause respecting the religious rian or grievously unjust to the Roman education. He had himself a strong view Catholic and the Unitarian. It would in support of what was called religious edueither sin, on the one hand, by taking all cation, for he was satisfied that there could creeds and teaching them alike, or, upon be no education without moral training, and the other, by infringing the rights of indi- that there could be no secure foundation viduals and excluding certain persons from for moral training except upon the revealed the benefits of an educational system pro- truths of religion. But then he thought vided for all. On all these grounds, he that the securities for religious education would oppose the Bill. rested rather in the religious character of the people at large than in any Statutes. He was much struck to find that in the Statutes of the old Scottish Parliament there were no provisions for the religious education of children—that was intrusted to the people themselves; and he much wished that his right hon. and learned Friend had imitated these precedents, and left it to the school committee to decide upon the character of the religious education, without raising that vexed question in his Bill. With regard to denominational schools, he regarded their existence as an evil which he had hoped the present Bill would have corrected, and he regretted that any provision should have been introduced for their perpetuation; but yet on general grounds he gave the measure his hearty support. As the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Miall) had complained that no statistics had been produced in reference to the present Bill, he would refer to an authority which could not be disputed in favour of a better and more extended education in Scotland. The Commissioners of Poor Law Inquiry, who had investigated the whole condition of the working classes in Scotland, expressed their firm opinion that all means for suppressing pauperism would be inefficient unless accompanied by mea sures for the promotion of education; and they regretted that, instead of improvement in the education of the people, there appeared from the evidence to be deterioration. He found, too, by the 14th Report of the Directors of Prisons in Scotland, that while, comparing the years 1841 and 1851, the increase of the population was 10 per cent, the increase in the same period on the daily average of female prisoners was 35 per cent, and of male prisoners 54 per cent. These facts tended to show that there was a deterioration in the moral condition of the people of Scotland. If reference were made to the petitions which had been presented, it would be seen that there was scarcely one that did not admit the necessity of something being done to increase

MR. BOUVERIE said, the speech of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was of a most singular character. The hon. Member prefaced his remarks by saying that he was dealing with the question as one of a practical nature, and the reasons he gave for voting against the Bill were, first, that the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate who introduced it had produced no statistics in his opening speech to show that additional education was required in Scotland; and, secondly, because the Bill would not reach the very classes who were most deplorably ignorant; but the hon. Member had lost sight of this fact, that though it might not reach all classes, yet there were many classes whom it would. No doubt there was no more terrible problem for solution in the present day than the existence of the ignorant classes, and the way in which they were to be dealt with. Yet the hon. Gentleman knew enough of Scotland-though it must be confessed he knew very little of it-he knew enough of Scotland to know that a system of national education had existed there for upwards of two centuries, and surely but for that national system it must be admitted that many of the working classes, who were now most creditably conducting themselves, would have been in that deplorable state of destitution which the hon. Gentleman had so graphically described. He did not wish to discuss the question upon the narrow ground of the ascendancy of one sect or another; and he believed the real point at issue was, whether the Bill would or would not have a tendency to promote the intelligence, morality, and religion of the people of Scotland. Though objecting to some of the details of the Bill, he was ready to give the second reading his hearty support. He thought his right hon. and learned Friend had given needless offence to the Establish ed Church, in his statement in the preamble, that the superintendence of schools had hitherto been inefficient and bad. He thought that that statement had better have Mr. Miall

five

and learned Lord proposed that schools should be established at the expense of the ratepayers, and that their management should be intrusted to persons nominated by the contributors, subject to the superintendence of a Central Board. He thought this the best system that could be devised for the purpose of general education. Local management afforded security for the good administration of the schools, while the superintendence of a Central Board offered the assurance that they would be governed on sound general principles. He did not like the clause which gave the Central Board the authority to dismiss any schoolmaster without reason assigned, as such a provision was likely to create obsequious. ness on the part of the persons liable to dismissal; but on the whole he repeated his confident conviction that the measure was calculated greatly to improve the education of the people of Scotland. Though not a Scotchman himself, yet, as one nearly and dearly connected with Scotland, and hav

with the people of that country, he thought it was their duty not to hand down the country to their posterity in a worse condition as to intelligence, morality, and religion, than they had received it from those who went before them.

the educational means of Scotland. Under these circumstances, the right hon. and learned Lord had brought in the present Bill. And he must remind the House that they must legislate upon the subject this year, unless they wished to make the condition of the Scottish schoolmasters much worse than it was. Their salaries were fixed with reference to the prices of grain, to be revised every twenty-one years. Now, this periodical revision was to take place this year, and the average of the last twentyyears would reduce their salaries at least 97. a year each. His hon. Friend the Member for Perthshire asked why the right hon. and learned Lord had not brought in a Bill simply to remedy this state of things, and he hinted that such a Bill was in preparation on the other side. [Mr. STIRLING: The Bill is prepared.] That might be; but he should be surprised, indeed, to see that Bill carried through the House, or accepted by the people of Scotland. It should be borne in mind that, up to a late period, the sys-ing some of his warmest feelings associated tem of education in Scotland was not only national in name, but in reality, for the Church of Scotland was the Church of the nation; but, now, instead of being the Church of the nation, it was the Church of the minority. While, then, an extension of the means of education was desirable, i that extension could not take place simply on the existing basis. The right hon. and learned Lord proposed, in reference to the schoolmasters, to get rid of the religious test and the superintendence of the presbytery, which latter was admitted to be almost useless. These provisions were con-gle instance of an attempt to proselytise. sidered greatly objectionable by the mem- The inspection on the part of the parish bers of the Established Church of Scotland; clergyman was excellent, and exceedingly but here he must again point out that the advantageous. The clergyman was always test did not constitute the security which on the spot, and had, therefore, the opporthe people of Scotland possessed for the tunity of constantly observing the state of religious instruction of the people. The the school; whereas under the present Bill security was that deeply-seated religious the inspector would come into the neighfeeling which was the honourable charac- bourhood only at stated periods, when teristic of the Scottish nation. If there everything would be prepared beforehand were any doubt respecting the religious for his inspection, so that he would not opinions of any master, the withdrawal of have the means of knowing the real and the children from his school would at once ordinary condition of the school. In abointimate the dissatisfaction of the parents; lishing the test, he thought that security and this was the practical security which ought to be taken that the schoolmaster all parties in Scotland possessed for the should be a firm believer in the truths of religious education of the children. The religion. If the right hon. and learned test, after all, was only a proof that at a Lord Advocate could give him an assurcertain time of his life the master was will-ance that the schoolmasters to be appointing to profess his adhesion to a particular creed, but was no proof that he continued to believe in that creed. The right hon.

MR. MACKIE said, he must maintain that the existing system of schools in Scotland was most liberal in its character. He denied that the parish schools were sectarian. He had visited many, and he had seen there the children of all denominations, but he had never heard of a sin

ed by virtue of this Bill were not only real Protestant Christians, but that they would remain so, or else be instantly removed,

objection to the measure was founded on the circumstance that it contained no security for the promotion of that description of education. The right hon. and learned Lord Advocate on a former occasion dealt somewhat hardly with those who were intrusted with the superintendence of parochial schools in Scotland, but against that animadversion he was able to set the opinion of one who knew Scotland and her schools well-he meant the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exche

Secular education was what was given in those schools, yet there was as great a desire to obtain a sound religious education, according to their views, in those States, as in any part of Scotland. The statistics of crime in America showed that it was only in a very small proportion of the population that the native educated American was guilty of crime. But, as he was not able to carry out his own views on this subject, he was willing to accept the next best thing -namely, Government aid combined with local rates. If his hon. Friend (Mr. Stir-quer. In a speech which that right hon. ling) could devise any better mode than what was now proposed, he should be happy to support him; but, in the absence of any suggestion of a preferable course, he certainly did not think it would be wise to leave society in Scotland in that state in which it at present existed. There was one point which he was sorry to have occasion to notice, but it was a lamentable fact that there existed a want of inclination on the part of the parents to send their children to school. The same indifference prevailed in Norfolk - the county with which he was connected. There were schools capable of receiving all the children of the locality, but the parents could not be induced to send them. They did not appear to value the education of their children, and for the sake of saving a few pence kept their children away. He hoped his hon. Friend would consider that those who concurred with him in his general object were acting right in agreeing to the second reading of the Bill as a step towards effecting what must prove to be a most beneficial measure for Scotland. At the same time, he could not understand the principle upon which the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Miall) based his opposition to it. What mode could he suggest for educating the people if he would not accept this Bill? He had certainly suggested none. Under all the circumstances, he strongly recommended all classes to unite to secure this measure, believing it would be sound economy to rate themselves in order to secure such an object. The only clause he objected to was the 27th. The principle of the Bill, however, he cordially approved, and he hoped the House would assent to the second reading.

COLONEL BLAIR said, that on the part of himself and others who objected to the Bill, he repudiated the imputation at tempted to be cast upon them of being opposed to the extension of religious education in Scotland. On the contrary, their

Gentleman delivered in the Mechanics' Institution at Manchester, within the last ten months, he accounted for the high moral position which the people of Scotland maintained in comparison with the people of other countries, "that every labouring man in Scotland had the opportunity of sending his children to schools where they could receive the blessings of a religious education, and the consequences of that had been, that there is an appreciation of those blessings among the people of Scotland continually growing with the enjoyment of them." The opponents of this Bill were, at least, as anxious to extend education in Scotland as any of the hon. Gentlemen opposite. There was no ground for the assertion that education had not been extended in Scotland of late years. It had been extended not only by the Free Church, but also by the Established Church. Members connected with English constituencies might not be aware that the parochial schools were not the only schools which were under the superintendence of the Established Church. The Assembly schools were also under the superintendence of the Established Church. He had a return which, although not official, he fully believed to be correct, showing that there were 1,049 parochial schools, and about 1,900 schools in all connected with the Established Church. In 1824 public attention was attracted to the deficiency existing in the means of education in Scotland, and the General Assembly determined on establishing schools called Assembly Schools, without any aid from the Government. In 1830 the number of these schools was thirty-five, with 5,000 scholars; in 1850 the number of Assembly schools had increased to 179, with 15,000 scholars. That did not look as if there was any indifference to the extension of education on the part of the Established Church. Even the unfortunate disruption of the Free Church had not paralysed the efforts

of the Established Church in the cause of | fered with. The declaration was not got education, for, in 1844, the year after the up in the same way as the petitions which disruption, the number of the Assembly had been presented to the House, but it schools increased to 139 from 127, at was signed by men well able to understand which it stood in 1840; and now as he the merits of the case. He did not believe had already stated, the number of these that the Free Church as a body approved schools amounted to 179. If, as was of this Bill. The Rev. Dr. Guthrie, who alleged, the Established Church was a was renowned alike for his learning, his minority in Scotland, it was much to its piety, and his wit, only wished the Bill to credit that it had double the number of pass as a stepping-stone for what was to schools under its superintendence that any follow. He would state the advice given other sect in that country had. The right by that rev. doctor at a meeting at Edinhon. and learned Lord in introducing the burgh, only a short time ago, when disBill, told the House that it was almost uni- cussing this Bill. His words were these, versally popular in Scotland. Now it was on advising them to reconeile their diffehis belief, that with the exception of one rence of opinion with regard to this measect in Scotland, the Bill was generally un- sure-"To each and all of these religious popular. This would appear from what bodies, beginning with the Free Church, he transpired in the Assemblies of the three would give the advice tendered to an hon. great religious divisions held to consider Baronet (Sir George, then Mr., Sinclair) the Bill soon after its promulgation. The when first elected for his native county. Assembly of the Established Church was, One of his supporters came to him and as every one knew, directly opposed to it. said, Now, Maister George, I'll gie ye The noble Lord the Member for Hadding- an advice; they've made a Parliament tonshire had quoted from the speech of Dr. man of ye, and my advice is, be aye taking Robertson, a distinguished member of the what ye can get, and aye seeking for Establishment, as being in favour of the mair.'" This, says the rev. doctor, is Bill; but had he looked further into his just what you should do, take this Bill speech he would have found that rev. as you can get it, and " aye be seeking gentleman to say, that if the principles of for mair." The rev. gentleman then goes this Bill were carried it would be a most on to state that this Bill is no attack on the severe blow to the Church of Scotland. Established Church, but that his only obIn the Assembly of the Free Church, the ject is to get the people of the country Rev. Mr. Marshall, a minister of the Free educated, and the means by which he is to Church in the borough which the Lord Ad- do so are, by his own acknowledgment, vocate represented, declared that, with all to keep up a continued agitation on the the faults of the Established Church, he question; and so far as considering the did not hesitate to avow that, "when he Bill as a settlement of the subject, and looked at the Bill, he would infinitely ra- as final legislation, he is to be always ther have the schools of Scotland left under " 'seeking for mair," which means makthe control of that Establishment than ing further encroachments on the rights under the control of such an organisation and privileges of the Established Church. as that proposed by the Bill, which was a Those who had long supported those combination of Erastianism and despotism, schools, and were still willing to do so, leading to latitudinarianism." As regarded declared that they were not opposed to the United Presbyterian Church, he had the extension of religious education, and not seen an opinion favourable to the mea- that if a Bill was prepared to correct the sure expressed at any meeting of its synods defects and increase the efficiency of the or presbyteries, and the Episcopal Church present system of parochial schools, they had, he believed, declared its disapproval would not oppose it. He protested most of the Bill. No allusion had yet been strongly against the principle of the Bill, made to the opinion entertained respecting and believed, if it had been allowed to go the Bill by an important body in Scotland into Committee, as had been suggested, -he meant the laity. A declaration, the House would be told the principle was signed by 1,900 gentlemen of Scotland, assented to. If it had gone into Commitwas drawn up to the effect that those tee, certainly the Bill would come out in a persons signing it were strongly of opinion very different shape to that which it now that, except to correct a few defects in the presented; for even the hon. Member for working of the present system of parochial Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie) could only find schools, that system ought not to be inter- two clauses in the Bill which he received with Colonel Blair