Imatges de pÓgina

ency. He was told that they were upsetting not been said what that religion was to be. the parochial schools. Where was it sup- It was unnecessary, with regard to Scotposed, then, that the governing power was land, to have stated this; and he hoped he placed? It was taken from the presbytery, was not wrong in the trust he thus had but was placed in the hands of the minis- placed in the people of Scotland, for if ter and the heritors or landowners of the these hopes were erroneous, then there was parish; and although the presbytery might no meaning in, or foundation for, this Bill, annually have visited the schools, still it unless they were agreed in establishing in was the minister and the landowners who these schools the Presbyterian faith, and in practice substantially managed the this was sufficiently stated and provided school. They had taken the power from for by the preamble and 27th clause of the a general and placed it in a local body- Bill. He was most willing that the clause inspectors were to make their reports, and with reference to the removal of schoolover these authorities was placed the ge- masters should be modified, and also that neral board. With regard to the provisions several other matters should be so treated, for securing religious instruction, he would and this could better be done in Committee. tell hon. Members opposite that he had With regard to the position in which the always felt that, theoretically, there was Bill placed Episcopalians and Roman Camuch difficulty in saying that instruction tholics, he considered that the clause bearin religion should be taught by a school- ing upon this, the 36th-the denominationmaster, without having some security for al clause-had been much misunderstood. the character of the man. This was one This clause was introduced to obviate the of the objections which he felt he had a difficulty that was felt that in attempting right to complain of being urged on the se- to set up a national system of education, cond reading of the Bill, for he was most and to impose a national rate, it was quite desirous to obviate these difficulties, and to plain that many who would have to pay meet the views of those who raised such that rate could not take advantage of this objections, by introducing important modi- system of education. He was of opinion fications. It was intended that the provost that it was impossible to call upon parties or delegate, as the town councils might to pay a rate for which they did not receive choose, of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth, and a good and substantial return; and he was Aberdeen, and also the principals of the sure he might, on behalf of the GovernUniversities of Edinburgh and Glasgow, ment, say that they did not feel themselves and two delegates from the Universities of in a position to conscientiously ask EpiscoSt. Andrews and Aberdeen, should be ex palians and Roman Catholics to subscribe officio members of the general board, so towards a national educational rate, at the that they would at all events have at least same time that they could not assist them four, if not six, ecclesiastics at the general in the education of their children. He board agreeing in their religious tenets, felt that great responsibility had rested thus affording sufficient security for the upon him in introducing this Bill, but religious character of the system. He he did not see how human ingenuity trusted, as a result of this measure, a sys- could have framed it to have subscribed tem of normal training would have arisen, for more assistance than he had done so that they might not have had to depend upon any test for the character of teachers, but on a normal system of training, where those who had educated them might certify as to the characters of those teachers who were sent out. It was impossible to have introduced such a system into the present Bill; but it was one which he wished to see' result from it. He thought he had now disposed of the objections as to the removal of the schools from the superintendence of the presbytery, but then he was told that there was no security for religion. The hon. Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) said that it was stated that religion was to be taught; but it had

he could not see how, by walking either to the right or the left, he should not have caused two opponents to rise up for the one he had conciliated. If he had listened to the Established Church, he would have had all the rest of Scotland opposed to him; if, on the other hand, he had listened to the secularists, he would have had the Free Church, the Established Church, and the great majority of that House, opposed to him. He, therefore, asked hon. Gentlemen, if they could not show him a better plan for a system of education, to follow then that which he had proposed, and he trusted that the division would show that, however sepa

rated they might be in abstract opinions, yet that they were one in doing their best to relieve their country from misery and


MR. BOWYER said, that the only objection he had to the very able speech addressed to the House by the right hon. and learned Lord was, that it was too much a speech in the interest of the dominant Church of the majority without regard to the interests of the minority. [Cries of "Divide."] He stood there as the representative of a minority, and as such he trusted he should be permitted to make a few observations. That minority under the present system enjoys certain advantages which they highly appreciate. They had their share in the grants that were distributed by the Committee of Council; they had inspectors belonging to their own communion, and the management of the schools was under the direction of the clergy and prelates of their Church. The right hon. and learned Lord dwelt very much upon the fact that the system introduced by this Bill was a Presbyterian system. He had spoken of the value which the people of Scotland set upon their religion, and the value they set upon religious education. But the minority, for whom he (Mr. Bowyer) was addressing the House, also set a great value upon religious education, and he asked from the Government some assurance that the rights of that minority would not be neglected, and that that minority should have the same advantages as they now enjoy under the present system.

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he did not make himself understood to the hon. and learned Gentleman, if he did not understand him to say, that if it were not possible to make the Episcopalians and Roman Catholics better in the matter of education, most assuredly they would be made worse.

Question put.


Bruce, H. A.
Buckley, Gen.
Byng, hon. G. H. C.

Cardwell, rt. hon. E.
Chambers, T.
Cheetham, J.
Cobbett, J. M.
Cobden, R.
Coffin, W.
Colvile, C. R.
Cowan, C.
Craufurd, E. H. J.
Dalrymple, Visct.
Dashwood, Sir G. H.
Davie, Sir II. R. F.
Divett, E.
Drumlanrig, Viset.

Cockburn, Sir A. J. E.

Drummond, H.
Duff, G. S.

Duff, J.
Duncan, G.
Dunlop, A. M.
Elcho, Lord
Elliot, hon. J. E.
Ellice, E.
Euston, Earl of
Ewart, W.
Fagan, W.
Feilden, M. J.
Fergus, J.
Ferguson, Col.
Ferguson, Sir R.
Ferguson, J.
FitzGerald, Sir J.
Fitzgerald, J. D.
Fitzroy, hon. H.
Fitzwilliam, hn. C.W. W.
Fitzwilliam, hon. G. W.
Foley, J. H. H.
Forster, C.
Fox, R. M.
Forster, J.
Fox, W. J.
Freestun, Col.
Gardner, R.

Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

Gladstone, rt. hon. W.
Glyn, G. C.

Goderich, Visct.
Goodman, Sir G.
Gower, hon. F. L.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.
Greene, J.
Gregson, S.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Grey, R. W.

The House divided:-Ayes 184; Noes Hall, Sir B.

193: Majority 9.

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Hankey, T.

Hastie, Alex.

Hastie, Arch.

[blocks in formation]

Mills, T.

Milner, W. M. E.

Michell, W.

Moffatt, G.
Monck, Visct.
Moncreiff, J.
Monsell, W.
Morris, D.

Mostyn, hon. T. E. M. L.
Muntz, G. F.
Mure, Col.

Murrough, J. P.
Norreys, Lord
Norreys, Sir D. J.
O'Brien, P.
O'Brien, Sir T.

O'Connell, D.

Oliveira, B.

Osborne, R.

Otway, A. J.
Paget, Lord A.
Palmerston, Visct.
Pechell, Sir G. B.
Phillimore, J. G.
Phillimore, R. J.
Phinn, T.

Price, W. P.
Ricardo, O.
Rice, E. R.

Richardson, J. J.
Roche, E. B.
Russell, Lord J.

Sadleir, John
Sawle, C. B. G.

Scully, F.

Scholefield, W.

[blocks in formation]

Scobell, Capt.

Heywood, J.

Scully, V.

Higgins, G. G. O.

Seymour, W. D.

Hindley, C.

Smith, J. A.

[blocks in formation]

Brady, J.

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Baines, rt. hon. M. T.

Baird, J.

Ball, J.

Bass, M. T.

Howard, hon. C. W. G. Smollett, A.

Ingham, R.

Stafford, Marq. of

Strutt, rt. hon. E.

Stuart, Lord D.

Sullivan, M.

[blocks in formation]

Booth, Sir R. G.

Harcourt, Col.

Hayes, Sir E.

Bruce, C. L. C.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Burrell, Sir C.

Butt, G. M.

Butt, I.

Cairns, H. M.

Campbell, Sir A. I.

Carnac, Sir J. R.

MacGregor, Jas.
Maguire, J. F.
Malins, R.

Manners, Lord G.

March, Earl of

Meux, Sir H.
Miall, E.

Miles, W.

Montgomery, H. L.
Montgomery, Sir G.

Moody, C. A.

Moore, G. H.

Mowbray, J. R.
Mullings, J. R.
Mundy, W.
Naas, Lord

Napier, rt. hon. J.
Neeld, J.

Newdegate, C. N.
Oakes, J. H. P.
Packe, C. W.

Palk, L.
Palmer, R.
Pellatt, A.

Pennant, hon. Col.
Percy, hon. J. W.
Peto, S. M.
Pilkington, J.
Pritchard, J.
Repton, G. W. J.
Robertson, P. F.
Rolt, P.
Sandars, G.
Scott, hon. F.
Seymer, H. K.

Shirley, E. P.
Sibthorp, Col.
Smijth, Sir W.

Smith, W. M.

[blocks in formation]

Words added; Main Question, as amend

Henley, rt. hon. J. W. ed, put, and agreed to.

Herbert, H. A.

Heyworth, L.

Horsfall, T. B.
Hotham, Lord

Hudson, G.

Hume, W. F.

Irton, S.

Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.

Jones, Capt.

[blocks in formation]

Jones, D.

Christy, S.

Kendall, N.

[blocks in formation]

King, J. K.

[blocks in formation]

Kennedy, T.

Knatchbull, W. F.
Knightley, R.
Knox, Col.
Knox, hon. W. S.
Langton, W. G.
Lennox, Lord A. F.
Lennox, Lord H. G.
Liddell, H. G.
Lindsay, hon. Col.
Lisburne, Earl of
Lockhart, A. E.
Lockhart, W.
Long, W.

Lovaine, Lord
Lowther, Capt.
Lucas, F.
Macartney, G.
Mackie, J.

Second reading put off for six months. The House adjourned at Two o'clock, till Monday next.


Monday, May 15, 1854.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS. - 1a Railway and
Canal Traffic Regulation; Witnesses.


LORD BROUGHAM said, that he had to present to their Lordships a petition in favour of this Bill from the most important Chamber of Commerce in the kingdomthat of Liverpool. It comprised nearly 2,000 members of the mercantile body of that great port, and although the petition which he held in his hand, according to their Lordships' rules, could only be taken as that of their chairman, by whom it was signed, it was, in fact, their petition. A noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) near him, informed him that he had also a peti

members of the mercantile class met, and appointed a committee, composed of twenty of the most influential members of their body, to examine the Bill in all its details. That committee reported that they had gone through it, clause by clause, and that they had proposed certain minor alterations, but that without a dissentient voice they were in favour of the leading principle of the Bill-the introduction of local judicial control-and that they looked forward to its adoption most anxiously, and with the greatest expectation of the benefits it would confer upon the country. They stated that the only part of the Bill which they felt any great difficulty in affirming was that relating to the appointment of official assignees; the majority of their number being, not against the appointment of official assignees in the abstract, but against the particular provisions of this measure on that subject. He had already presented to the House petitions in favour of the Bill from Glas

tion to the same effect from the Guardians | the numbers being, twenty-one against, and of Trade in the same borough, a body seventeen for it. Of this majority of twentywhich numbered amongst its members one no fewer than seventeen were accountnearly 1,800. The interest in favour ants or law agents. The next day 250 of the Bill was not confined to the mercantile body of England, and a statement which had been made in that House last week with respect to the discontent which this Bill was said to have excited in Scotland was very inaccurate, indeed wholly groundless. The other day his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack presented a petition against this Bill, with eighty or ninety signatures, purporting to be those of merchants, bankers, and traders of the city of Glasgow. Now, he had since ascertained that at least twenty-eight of the persons were not what they professed to be that they were, in fact, sailing under false colours, and that, while stating themselves to be merchants, bankers, or traders, they were accountants, writers, or law agents, who thought, and perhaps justly so, that the Bill in question was inconsistent with their interests, and who were therefore canvassing Scotland against it. That in thus mis-describing themselves they had committed a breach of the privileges of the House was undeniable. He did not, how-gow, signed by 700 merchants and tradever, mean to deny that the names of a considerable number of respectable persons, who were really members of the mercantile and trading classes, were affixed to that petition. He wished also to mention another instance of the impositions which had been practised upon that, and he believed also upon the other House of Parliament. Last October a public meeting, attended by 200 or 300 of the most spectable mercantile men in Glasgow, was held for the purpose of considering this Bill. It so happened that a gentleman, not a merchant or trader, but a lawyerone of those writers, agents, or accountants before referred to, attended. This individual addressed the meeting in a long speech, which he read from a written paper. And the consequence was that by the time he had concluded, the meeting dwindled down to thirty-two or thirty-three persons, the rest having been dispersed by the reading. A division then took place, and it was found that there had been a great discrimination in the departures from the meeting, the writers, accountants, and lawyers had remained, while the merchants and traders had gone away; and accordingly a resolution approving the general purport of the Bill, which was made by a respectable merchant, was rejected by a majority of four; Lord Brougham

ers; from the Chamber of Commerce at Dundee, from the county of Fife, from merchants in London who had capital to a vast amount embarked in trade with Scotland, two from Manchester, from the Chamber of Commerce at Leeds, Bradford, Nottingham, and Huddersfield, and one from Carlisle. These petitions might be said to represent the united sense of the great merre-cantile body in both parts of the island, and therefore it was with the greatest possible reluctance that he postponed, even for a short period, proceeding with the Bill. He felt, however, that in the present state of the inquiries respecting the amendment of the English and Irish bankrupt law, he should do best in not pressing immediately

that was, this week or next-the further procedure with the Bill. Not only, however, would he not abandon it, but he would not postpone it indefinitely; being resolved not to put it off for more than a short period, and until he had seen the course taken with regard to those other measures with which it had an intimate connection. For the present then, for this week and the next, and until he saw what was done with the other inquiries, he should not further proceed with this important Bill. He must add one remark with respect to it. It had



been said that it was a measure for altering the whole Scotch bankruptcy and THE "ANDES" STEAM TRANSPORT-EXPLAinsolvency law, and for introducing the English law in its stead. Now, the fact was, that this Bill of 260 clauses reenacted word for word the whole of the important provisions of the Scotch Bankruptcy Act, commonly called Professor Bell's Act, passed eighteen or twenty years ago, and the changes introduced related to procedure.

THE EARL OF EGLINTON was glad to hear that the noble and learned Lord did not intend to go on with his Bill at present, and he hoped it would be withdrawn altogether. [Lord BROUGHAM: No, no!] As the noble and learned Lord knew, deputations on the subject had been in London on more than one occasion, and were now here, and it would be a very inconvenient course for him to say he postponed the Bill, not for two or three weeks, but until he thought fit to proceed with it. He trusted, therefore, he would either withdraw the Bill or postpone it for some definite period. Several of the petitions presented against the measure by the Lord Chancellor came from some of the most influential parties in Scotland. It seemed to him (the Earl of Eglinton) that the two bodies likely to be the best judges of the proposed alterations in the law were lawyers and mercantile men; and he believed he was justified in saying that the lawyers in Scotland without a single exception were opposed to the noble and learned Lord's Bill, and he was perfectly convinced that


enormous majority of the mercantile men of that country were of the same mind. He hoped the noble and learned Lord would therefore act in accordance with the opinion of the great majority of the people of Scotland, and withdraw the Bill.

LORD BROUGHAM maintained that the noble Lord was misinformed when he said that the bulk of the mercantile community was against the Bill. He could put into the noble Lord's hand a list of the names of 250-not writers, law agents, and accountants, under the disguise of mercantile men-but real mercantile men, traders, bankers, and manufacturers, all resident in that part of Scotland to which the noble Lord had referred—namely, Glasgow; and that would convince the noble Lord how misinformed he had been as to the bulk of the mercantile community being adverse to the Bill.

Petition ordered to lie on the table.

THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE said, he wished to say a few words in reference to a question which was put to him at the last meeting of the House, by a noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde), whom he did not now see in his place, as to whether he had any information as to the statement which appeared in the newspapers, that the steamer Andes, in conveying a body of troops to the East, took fire near Malta, and had, at the time of the occurrence, only two boats on board. He (the Duke of Newcastle) then informed their Lordships that it was true the ship had caught fire; but that, from the news received at the Admiralty, and also at the Horse Guards, from the general commanding the troops at Malta, and the colonel of the regiment on board, he had the greatest reason to suspect that the statement as to the boats was not correct, inasmuch as the reports in the possession of these departments, although very ample as to the whole state of the case, did not mention that circumstance, which obviously would have been the first to attract attention. He stated, at the same time, that all such vessels were surveyed by officers appointed by the Admiralty, and that it was impossible that such a circumstance could have escaped the notice of the inspector, and that the greatest possible neglect would be chargeable at the door of the port officer at Liverpool, if that accusation could be substantiated. He was now in a position to state that his suspicions were entirely accurate, and that the anonymous statement which appeared in the newspapers, which was brought forward by the noble Marquess, and alluded to by the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough), was entirely inaccurate. So far from there being only two small boats on board the Andes, there were six boats, five only being required by the Act of Parliament. He had felt convinced in his own mind at the time that such would prove to be the case (although he could not venture to state it too strongly), not only on account of the importance of the duties devolving on the Admiralty officers, and his certainty that they could not have failed so grievously, but also from his knowledge of the character of the gentleman to whom the Andes belonged (Mr. Cunard); and he had his authority, as well as that of the officer at Liverpool, for

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