293

ency. He was told that they were upsetting | not been said what that religion was to be. Where was it sup- It was unnecessary, with regard to Scotthe parochial schools. posed, then, that the governing power was land, to have stated this; and he hoped he placed? It was taken from the presbytery, was not wrong in the trust he thus had but was placed in the hands of the minis- placed in the people of Scotland, for if ter and the heritors or landowners of the these hopes were erroneous, then there was parish; and although the presbytery might no meaning in, or foundation for, this Bill, annually have visited the schools, still it unless they were agreed in establishing in was the minister and the landowners who these schools the Presbyterian faith, and in practice substantially managed the this was sufficiently stated and provided school. They had taken the power from for by the preamble and 27th clause of the a general and placed it in a local body- Bill. He was most willing that the clause inspectors were to make their reports, and with reference to the removal of schoolover these authorities was placed the ge- masters should be modified, and also that neral board. With regard to the provisions several other matters should be so treated, for securing religious instruction, he would and this could better be done in Committee. tell hon. Members opposite that he had With regard to the position in which the always felt that, theoretically, there was Bill placed Episcopalians and Roman Camuch difficulty in saying that instruction tholics, he considered that the clause bearin religion should be taught by a school- ing upon this, the 36th-the denominationmaster, without having some security for al clause-had been much misunderstood. This was one This clause was introduced to obviate the the character of the man. of the objections which he felt he had a difficulty that was felt that in attempting right to complain of being urged on the se- to set up a national system of education, cond reading of the Bill, for he was most and to impose a national rate, it was quite desirous to obviate these difficulties, and to plain that many who would have to pay meet the views of those who raised such that rate could not take advantage of this objections, by introducing important modi- system of education. He was of opinion fications. It was intended that the provost that it was impossible to call upon parties or delegate, as the town councils might to pay a rate for which they did not receive choose, of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth, and a good and substantial return; and he was Aberdeen, and also the principals of the sure he might, on behalf of the GovernUniversities of Edinburgh and Glasgow, ment, say that they did not feel themselves and two delegates from the Universities of in a position to conscientiously ask EpiscoSt. Andrews and Aberdeen, should be ex palians and Roman Catholics to subscribe officio members of the general board, so towards a national educational rate, at the that they would at all events have at least same time that they could not assist them four, if not six, ecclesiastics at the general in the education of their children. He board agreeing in their religious tenets, felt that great responsibility had rested thus affording sufficient security for the upon him in introducing this Bill, but see how human ingenuity religious character of the system. He he did not trusted, as a result of this measure, a sys- could have framed it to have subscribed tem of normal training would have arisen, for more assistance than he had done so that they might not have had to depend he could not see how, by walking upon any test for the character of teachers, either to the right or the left, he should but on a normal system of training, where not have caused two opponents to rise up those who had educated them might certify for the one he had conciliated. If he had as to the characters of those teachers who listened to the Established Church, he It was impossible to have would have had all the rest of Scotland were sent out. introduced such a system into the present opposed to him; if, on the other hand, he Bill; but it was one which he wished to had listened to the secularists, he would He thought he had have had the Free Church, the Established see result from it. now disposed of the objections as to the Church, and the great majority of that removal of the schools from the superin- House, opposed to him. He, therefore, tendence of the presbytery, but then he asked hon. Gentlemen, if they could not was told that there was no security for show him a better plan for a system of religion. The hon. Member for the West education, to follow then that which he Riding (Mr. Cobden) said that it was stated had proposed, and he trusted that the that religion was to be taught; but it had division would show that, however sepaL 2

rated they might be in abstract opinions, yet that they were one in doing their best to relieve their country from misery and

gnorance.

MR. BOWYER said, that the only objection he had to the very able speech addressed to the House by the right hon. and learned Lord was, that it was too much a speech in the interest of the dominant Church of the majority without regard to the interests of the minority. [Cries of "Divide."] He stood there as the representative of a minority, and as such he trusted he should be permitted to make a few observations. That minority under the present system enjoys certain advantages which they highly appreciate. They had their share in the grants that were distributed by the Committee of Council; they had inspectors belonging to their own communion, and the management of the schools was under the direction of the clergy and prelates of their Church. The right hon. and learned Lord dwelt very much upon the fact that the system introduced by this Bill was a Presbyterian system. He had spoken of the value which the people of Scotland set upon their religion, and the value they set upon religious education. But the minority, for whom he (Mr. Bowyer) was addressing the House, also set a great value upon religious education, and he asked from the Government some assurance that the rights of that minority would not be neglected, and that that minority should have the same advantages as they now enjoy under the present system.

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he did not make himself understood to the hon. and learned Gentleman, if he did not understand him to say, that if it were not possible to make the Episcopalians and Roman Catholics better in the matter of education, most assuredly they would be made worse.

Question put.

not

Bruce, H. A.
Buckley, Gen.
Byng, hon. G. H. C.

Cardwell, rt. hon. E.
Chambers, T.
Cheetham, J.
Cobbett, J. M.
Cobden, R.
Coffin, W.
Colvile, C. R.
Cowan, C.
Craufurd, E. H. J.
Dalrymple, Visct.

Cockburn, Sir A. J. E.

Dashwood, Sir G. H.
Davie, Sir H. R. F.
Divett, E.
Drumlanrig, Viset.
Drummond, H.
Duff, G. S.

Duff, J.
Duncan, G.
Dunlop, A. M.
Elcho, Lord

Elliot, hon. J. E.
Ellice, E.
Euston, Earl of
Ewart, W.
Fagan, W.
Feilden, M. J.
Fergus, J.
Ferguson, Col.
Ferguson, Sir R.
Ferguson, J.
FitzGerald, Sir J.
Fitzgerald, J. D.
Fitzroy, hon. H.

Fitzwilliam, hn. C.W. W.
Fitzwilliam, hon. G. W.
Foley, J. H. H.
Forster, C.
Forster, J.
Fox, R. M.
Fox, W. J.
Freestun, Col.
Gardner, R.

Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.
Gladstone, rt. hon. W.

Glyn, G. C.
Goderich, Visct.
Goodman, Sir G.
Gower, hon. F. L.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.
Greene, J.
Gregson, S.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Grey, R. W.

The House divided:-Ayes 184; Noes Hall, Sir B.

193: Majority 9.

Hankey, T.

Hastie, Alex.
Hastie, Arch.

Herbert, rt, hon. S.
Hervey, Lord A.
Heywood, J.

Higgins, G. G. O.

Hindley, C.

Horsman, E.

Lemon, Sir C.

Layard, A. H.

Lindsay, W. S.
Locke, J.
Lowe, R.
Luce, T.

Macaulay, rt. hon. T. B
M'Cann, J.

MacGregor, John

M'Taggart, Sir J.
Mangles, R. D.
Marjoribanks, D. C.

Marshall, W.
Massey, W. N.
Matheson, A.

Matheson, Sir J.

Milligan, R.
Mills, T.

Milner, W. M. E.

Michell, W.

Moffatt, G.
Monck, Visct.
Moncreiff, J.
Monsell, W.
Morris, D.

Mostyn, hon. T. E. M. L.
Muntz, G. F.
Mure, Col.
Murrough, J. P.
Norreys, Lord
Norreys, Sir D. J.
O'Brien, P.
O'Brien, Sir T.

O'Connell, D.

Oliveira, B.

Osborne, R.
Otway, A. J.
Paget, Lord A.
Palmerston, Visct.
Pechell, Sir G. B.
Phillimore, J. G.

Phillimore, R. J.
Phinn, T.
Price, W. P.

Ricardo, O.
Rice, E. R.

Richardson, J. J.

Roche, E. B.

Russell, Lord J.
Sadleir, John
Sawle, C. B. G.

Bankruptcy and

Wickham, H. W.

List of the NOES.

Emlyn, Visct.

Farnham, E. B.

Farrer, J.

Fellowes, E.

tion to the same effect from the Guardians | the numbers being, twenty-one against, and of Trade in the same borough, a body seventeen for it. Of this majority of twentywhich numbered amongst its members one no fewer than seventeen were accountnearly 1,800. The interest in favour ants or law agents. The next day 250 of the Bill was not confined to the mer- members of the mercantile class met, cantile body of England, and a statement and appointed a committee, composed of which had been made in that House twenty of the most influential members last week with respect to the discontent of their body, to examine the Bill in all which this Bill was said to have excited in its details. That committee reported that Scotland was very inaccurate, indeed wholly they had gone through it, clause by groundless. The other day his noble and clause, and that they had proposed certain learned Friend on the woolsack presented minor alterations, but that without a disa petition against this Bill, with eighty or sentient voice they were in favour of the ninety signatures, purporting to be those leading principle of the Bill-the introducof merchants, bankers, and traders of the tion of local judicial control-and that city of Glasgow. Now, he had since as- they looked forward to its adoption most certained that at least twenty-eight of the anxiously, and with the greatest expecta persons were not what they professed to be tion of the benefits it would confer upon -that they were, in fact, sailing under the country. They stated that the only false colours, and that, while stating them- part of the Bill which they felt any great selves to be merchants, bankers, or trad- difficulty in affirming was that relating to ers, they were accountants, writers, or law the appointment of official assignees; the agents, who thought, and perhaps justly so, majority of their number being, not against that the Bill in question was inconsistent the appointment of official assignees in with their interests, and who were there- the abstract, but against the particular profore canvassing Scotland against it. That visions of this measure on that subject. in thus mis-describing themselves they had He had already presented to the House committed a breach of the privileges of the petitions in favour of the Bill from GlasHouse was undeniable. He did not, how-gow, signed by 700 merchants and tradever, mean to deny that the names of a considerable number of respectable persons, who were really members of the mercantile and trading classes, were affixed to that petition. He wished also to mention another instance of the impositions which had been practised upon that, and he believed also upon the other House of Parliament. Last October a public meeting, attended by 200 or 300 of the most re-cantile body in both parts of the island, and spectable mercantile men in Glasgow, was held for the purpose of considering this Bill. It so happened that a gentleman, not a merchant or trader, but a lawyerone of those writers, agents, or accountants before referred to, attended. This individual addressed the meeting in a long speech, which he read from a written paper. And that was, this week or next-the further the consequence was that by the time he procedure with the Bill. Not only, howhad concluded, the meeting dwindled down ever, would he not abandon it, but he to thirty-two or thirty-three persons, the would not postpone it indefinitely; being rest having been dispersed by the reading. resolved not to put it off for more than A division then took place, and it was found a short period, and until he had seen that there had been a great discrimination the course taken with regard to those in the departures from the meeting, the other measures with which it had an writers, accountants, and lawyers had re-intimate connection. For the present mained, while the merchants and traders had gone away; and accordingly a resolution approving the general purport of the Bill, which was made by a respectable merchant, was rejected by a majority of four; Lord Brougham

ers; from the Chamber of Commerce at Dundee, from the county of Fife, from merchants in London who had capital to a vast amount embarked in trade with Scotland, two from Manchester, from the Chamber of Commerce at Leeds, Bradford, Nottingham, and Huddersfield, and one from Carlisle. These petitions might be said to represent the united sense of the great mer

therefore it was with the greatest possible reluctance that he postponed, even for a short period, proceeding with the Bill. He felt, however, that in the present state of the inquiries respecting the amendment of the English and Irish bankrupt law, he should do best in not pressing immediately

then, for this week and the next, and
until he saw what was done with the other
inquiries, he should not further proceed
with this important Bill. He must add
one remark with respect to it.
It had

been said that it was a measure for altering the whole Scotch bankruptcy and THE "ANDES STEAM TRANSPORT-EXPLAinsolvency law, and for introducing the English law in its stead. Now, the fact was, that this Bill of 260 clauses reenacted word for word the whole of the important provisions of the Scotch Bankruptcy Act, commonly called Professor Bell's Act, passed eighteen or twenty years ago, and the changes introduced related to procedure.