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would be paid except to those who pro- land who have Roman Catholic and Presfessed the Roman Catholic faith. If that byterian chaplains. But they were now was so, they could not pay Presbyterians. discussing a perfectly new Vote, applicable The hon. Member must strike out the entirely to England. ["Hear, hear!"] sums for Presbyterian chaplains. He must He should be glad to hear what was the not violate the sacred principle of an esta- special service for which this 550l. a year blished religion-he must not contaminate was to be paid. He was sure that the the national faith. In Scotland the Pres- noble Lord the Home Secretary did not byterians was the established religion state exactly his ideas upon the subject. but in Ireland the Presbyterians were Dis- He, however, understood the noble Lord senters, and therefore they must be ex- to say that this Vote was for England. cluded from the Vote, if the Nouconform- Therefore, as a Protestant country, proist Members really believed the principles fessing Protestant principles, they were which they professed, and on which they asked to legitimatise Roman Catholic chapasked the Committee to deprive the Catho- lains in gaols. This, though a small Vote, lics of the benefit of this very meagre vote. carried with it a great principle-namely, There was another point. Already, with the toleration of the Roman Catholic relirespect to the reformation of criminals, a gion in our public establishments. He Committee upstairs were considering the wished to know how the noble Lord inexample furnished by Mettrai and other tended to carry out his proposition. The kindred institutions, because they said that noble Lord did not explain whether this an effect was produced in those establish- Vole was to be entirely for convict estaments which they wished to produce in the blishments. He wanted to know, with the reformatory prisons in this country. In present means of information, how the fact, we founded institutions on the basis noble Lord proposed to place the Catholic of those establishments, and then paid chaplain in communication with the Scrippublic money to carry out a faint shadow ture reader, for the Scripture reader, he of the example so set, and yet there were took it, went through every denomination those who professed to believe that Roman of prisoners for the purpose of reading the Catholic priests could not produce that Scriptures to them? This was truly a effect on the minds of those submitted to Protestant question. If the vote upon them, which was ascertained by Commit- the Middlesex Reformatory Schools was tees upstairs to have been produced when- looked upon as such, this vote would be ever the experiment had been tried. This looked upon doubly as such. He hoped was partly a question of justice; but it and trusted that not only the ordinary was not so much a question of justice as it Members of the Established Church, but was of common sense. They professed to also the Dissenters, would cordially unite believe that religious training was neces- in opposing this Vote. sary to the reform of the criminal, and the question was whether they would adopt the means which they professed to believe necessary. Professing as they did on other occasions that these means were necessary, hon. Gentlemen who desired that the Vote now in question should be struck out of the Estimates declared that they would not have the means, and they did so upon the inconsistent ground which he had pointed out, and which he was persuaded the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) would reform before the voting on the coming division.

MR. MILES said, he could not suffer the observations of the hon. Member for Meath to pass without some little notice. The hon. Member seemed to have mystified, as was usual with him, the object of religious instruction. He (Mr. Miles) quite agreed with the hon. Gentleman that in this Vote was included the prisons in Ire

MR. MIALL said, that the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Lucas) had done great injustice to the position taken up by his hon. Friend the Member for Oldham (Mr. W. J. Fox). The hon. Member for Oldham put the argument thus-that if you were to throw the care of the prisoners upon the spontaneous liberality and Christian charity of Churches in general, the liberality and charity of every Church-not merely of Nonconformists, for he gave full credit for similar liberality and charity to the Roman Catholic Church-would furnish the instructions and ministrations which were needed. He (Mr. Miall) hoped that the hon. Member for Meath did not intend to imply that Nonconformists were alone wanting in this charity and liberality, and he would remind him as a reason which might account for the non-attendance of Nonconformist ministers in the cases to which he referred, that a minister other

than the chaplain of the gaol only attended prisoners upon their making a special request that he should do so.

MR. SPOONER said, it was only justice to allow him to offer some explanation in reply to the observations of the hon. Member for Meath. He would first refer to the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) who accused him of using hard words. He (Mr. Spooner) could only say that the only hard words he used were those contained in these Articles to which the noble Lord must have signed his full, complete, and cordial assent. With regard to the hon. Member for Meath, he (Mr. Spooner) was perfectly aware that there were other Votes besides this one of 5501. included in the present proposition. His hon. Friend (Mr. Miles) having fully answered that point, he (Mr. Spooner) would not think it necessary to add anything more. This was a new Vote-a Vote for England. Hitherto the Vote upon this subject was confined to Ireland. Much as he disapproved of that Vote for Ireland, he thought it a great deal better to get at more tangible ground, and to say, You shall go no further, for it is not because you have been allowed to do a wrong already that you shall be permitted to extend it. He had only simply to state that he did not agree with much that had been said even by those who were about to vote in favour of his Amendment. His simple object in opposing this Vote was to raise the Protestant voice in that House against the proposition of the noble Lord. He believed that for Parliament to give its sanction to the propagation of the Catholic religion would be a national sin. [Ironical cheers from the Irish Members.] Hon. Gentlemen might laugh if they pleased, but this was his honest opinion-an opinion which he had always professed since he had had the honour of a seat in that House, and an opinion which he meant to carry out so long as he was permitted to sit in that House.

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The Committee divided:-Ayes 158;

Noes 136: Majority 22.

List of the AYES.

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Blair, Col.
Brocklehurst, J.

Booker, T. W.

Brooke, Sir A. B.
Buck, L. W.
Burrell, Sir C. M.
Burroughes, II. N.
Butt, G. M.

Cecil, Lord R.
Campbell, Sir A. I.
Challis, Mr. Ald.
Chambers, M.
Chambers, T.
Cheetham, J.
Chelsea, Visct.
Child, S.
Cobbold, J. C.
Collier, R. P.
Craufurd, E. II. J.
Dalkeith, Earl of
Crossley, F.
Dalrymple, Viset.
Davie, Sir H. R. F.
Davies, D. A. S.
Disraeli, rt, hon. B.
Deedes, W.
Dod, J. W.
Duncan, G.
Dundas, G.
Dunlop, A. M.
Ellice, E.
Evelyn, W. J.
Ewart, W.
Farrer, J.
Fellowes, E.
Fergus, J.
Ferguson, J.
Floyer, J.
Forbes, W.
Fox, W. J.

Du Pre, C. G.

Frewen, C. H.
Galway, Viset.
George, J.
Gilpin, Col.

Goddard, A. L.

Greenall, G.
Grogan, E.
Gwyn, H.
Hadfield, G.
Hardinge, hon. C. S.
Hastie, A.

Henley, rt, hon. J. W.
Horsfall, T. B.
Hildyard, R. C.
Hudson, G.
lume, W. F.
Jones, D.
Kendall, N.
Keating, H. S.

Kerrison, Sir E. C.

Kershaw, J.

King, J. K.

Kinnaird, hon. A. F.

Knatchbull, W. F.

Knightley, R.
Knox, Col.
Laing, S.
Langton, W. G.
Langton, H. G.
Lascelles, hon. E.
Lee, W.

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INDEX

ΤΟ

HANSARD'S PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

VOLUME CXXXIII.

BEING THE FOURTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1854.

EXPLANATION OF THE ABBREVIATIONS.

1R. 2R. 3R. First, Second, or Third Reading.-Amend., Amendment.-Res., Resolution.-Com.,
Committee.-Re-Com., Re-committal. Rep., Report.-Adj., Adjourned.-cl., Clause.--add.
cl., Additional Clause.-neg., Negatived. l., Lords.-c., Commons.-
.-m. q., Main Question.-
o. q., Original Question.-o. m., Original Motion. - p. q., Previous Question.-r. p., Report
Progress.-A., Ayes.-N., Noes.-M., Majority.-1st Div., 2nd Div. First or Second Divi-

sion.

When in the Text or in the Index a Speech is marked thus, it indicates that the Speech
is reprinted from a Pamphlet or some authorised Report.

When in this Index a* is added to the Reading of a Bill, it indicates that no Debate took place
upon that stage of the measure.

A

BERDEEN, Earl of (First Lord of | AGLIONBY, Mr. H. A., Cockermouth

the Treasury)

Cambridge, University of, 980

Education (Scotland)—Parish Schoolmasters,
659, 665

Executions, Capital, 308

Greville, Col. Fulke, Case of, Correspondence
moved for, 320, 322

Russia, War with-Blockade of the White Sea,

1229

Spiritual Destitution of the Labouring Classes,

151

Unauthorised Negotiations, 2R. 34

War Department, Secretary of State for the,
1233, 1303, 1304, 1305, 1358

ACLAND, Sir T. D., Devonshire, N.
Chimney Sweepers, 2R. 653

Oxford University, Com. cl. 18, 194

ADDERLEY, Mr. C. B., Staffordshire, N.
Middlesex Industrial Schools, Rep. 803
Orange River Territory, Address moved, 52,
68, 87

Supply-Poor Laws, 1337;-Prisons at Home,
1409

ADVOCATE, The LORD (Rt. Hon. J. Mon-

creiff), Leith, &c.

Burgh Boundaries (Scotland), 2R. Amend. 478
Education (Scotland), 2R. 283, 295

Parochial Schoolmasters (Scotland), Leave, 1132

Business of the House, Res. 4, 1173
Criminal Procedure, 2R. 1298, 1301
Oxford University, Com. cl. 26, 1195

Agricultural Averages (Ireland) Bill,
c. Leave, 460; 1R.* 474

Agricultural Lectures (Ireland),
c. Question (Mr. F. Scully), 231

ALBEMARLE, Earl of

Military Knights of Windsor, Com. moved for,
1305, 1321

Singapore, Administration of Justice at, 1354
Ambulance Corps,

7. Question (Earl of Hardwicke), 1301

ARGYLL, Duke of (Lord Privy Seal)
Education (Scotland)-Parish Schoolmasters,

663

Landlord and Tenant, Law of (Ireland), Com.
513, cl. 116, 533

Leasing, Powers of (Ireland), 3R. Amend.
1001, 1002, 1003, 1008

Army,

Ambulance Corps, l. Question (Earl of Hard-
wicke), 1301

Families of Soldiers, . Question (Lord St.
Leonards), 511;

c. Question (Col. Harcourt), 169

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