Lord Yarmouth thought it was very plain that his Royal Highness had power to sign the commission. Mr. Tierney denied, that by the Act of the 53d George 3, it was intended to give the King a power to break up the parks that were given as a part of the royalty to maintain the dignity of the Crown. No answer whatever had been given, why a ranger of the parks had not been appointed; and he had not heard any thing to prove, that any direct advantage had been gained by a commission. Mr. Arbuthnot thought, that what his noble friend had stated, namely, that his Royal Highness wished all the farms to remain in the same state as his Majesty left them, was a sufficient reason why no ranger had been appointed. Mr. Tierney begged to be informed what was the point of law that had now been referred to the Crown lawyers, and why it had not before been decided, when the commission had been so long in existence? The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the opinion of the legal advisers of the Crown was required as soon as the point was regularly raised. Mr. Bennet asked whether there would be any objection made to the production of the expenses of the erection of the Thatched Palace in Windsor Great Park? Mr. Huskisson referred the hon. gentleman to the Treasury, which had issued warrants for the money which had been paid in his department. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that there would be no objection to complete the accounts already upon the table, to a certain date, regarding the erections in Windsor park. The question was then put, and negatived. MOTION RESPECTING SERVANTS OF THE ROYAL HOUSEHOLD.] Sir Charles Burrell rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move an Address to the Regent, upon the subject of certain gratuities received by the servants of the Royal Household from individuals attending the Court. He first drew the attention of the House to the observations of the two Civil List Committees upon this subject, which was beyond the control of the Lord Steward. He referred to the ancient and evil practice of visitors giving vails to the servants of noblemen and gentlemen, now entirely discontinued, and argued upon the necessity of abolishing the custom when visitors waited on the occupant of the throne. The existence of this system was, he said, a stigma upon the national character; and foreigners went away with the conviction that every thing was to be done by money in this country, without which they could not procure even a sight of the Sovereign. In the household of the Prince of Wales no such custom had ever prevailed; but since his Royal Highness had become Regent, it had been transferred with the Royal Household. There were usually belonging to the establishment, among the inferior officers eight marshals, who paid 800l. for their situations, and yet only received a nominal salary of 22l. 15s. 6d., and they were obliged to procure themselves hats and other clothes, excepting coats, which were given once in two years: of course, they were obliged to derive their profits from the visitors of the Court. In the same situation was the serjeant-porter, whose place produced only 1201. per annum, and the yeoman-porters and groom-porters, who gave 2001. for their offices, and received salaries of 501, and 601. The gentlemen pensioners, or yeomen of the guard, gave 350l. for the situation, and only obtained a salary from the Household of 39l. 11s. 3d. The consequence was, that, instead of being gentlemen as formerly, they were in truth beggars, and carried their begging books round to the nobility and gentry, for subscriptions to make up the deficiency. Besides these, there were the Regent's and the Queen's gentlemen-porters, footmen, and grooms of the chambers; all of whom were paid at the same inefficient rate, and who, in consequence, were constrained to prey upon the gratuities of those who visited the Court, and who thus became liable to the most vexatious demands. The object which he had in view, and which he was satisfied would be sanctioned by the House, was, that such provision should be made for these officers in future, that they would be sufficiently remunerated, without having recourse to a system which was discreditable to the honour and dignity of the Crown, as it was disgraceful to the country. The hon. baronet concluded by moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, submitting to his Royal Highness's gracious consideration so much of the reports of the committees on the Civil List of the years 1812 and 1813, as relates to the mode of remunerating certain inferior servants of the Royal Household by gra tuities collected from individuals attending the Court." The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not object to the motion; but thought that the House would do well not to pledge itself too far, lest the sum necessary for the proposed commutation should be found greater than members would think fit to lay upon the public. The practice complained of prevailed in a greater or less degree in all the Courts of Europe. Mr. W. Smith would not concur in laying any great and additional burthen upon the nation for the sake of removing a sup. posed stigma. Sir C. Burrell did not think that the sum could be considerable; it might be paid out of the Droits of Admiralty. Mr. Huskisson remarked, that it would be necessary not only to give compensation to those who had bought their places, but to any persons who derived emolument from the prevailing custom, and more especially to those higher officers of the household, whose emoluments depended upon the sale of the situations of their inferiors. Mr. Sumner said, that if the dignity of the Crown required the abolition of the present fees, he did not think the House would be restrained by motives of parsimony from taking measures to put this part of the household establishment on the same footing with all other parts of it. The motion was agreed to. His MOTIONS RELATING TO THE NEW MINT.] Mr. Bankes, in pursuance of his notice, rose to move for certain papers connected with the expenses of the New Mint. intention of submitting this motion, he observed, had arisen out of the papers which had recently been delivered to the House on this subject. From these papers it appeared, that notwithstanding the immense sum which had been expended on the building of this magnificent edifice, it was now found that there were a certain number of persons, who it was desirable should live within the building, for whom no accommodations were prepared, and, in consequence, four new dwellinghouses were to be built, at an expense of 4,000l. The example which this head of public expenditure had afforded he trusted would induce the House, in future, to be extremely scrupulous in examining into the objects for which they were called upon to grant money, and more especially when another great building-the new (VOL. XXX. ) Post-office-was in contemplation. The hon. gentleman then moved for the fol papers: 1. "A statement of the number of dwelling-houses, or separate apartments used as dwelling-houses in the Mint, together with the names of the persons occupying the same, and their situations and employments, in that department; also of the number of persons who had residences in the old Mint, and the situations and employments which they held; also of the uses to which the residences or dwelling-houses in the old Mint have been converted. 2. An account of the expense of all machinery for coining erected in the Mint. 3. An account of the amount of the incidental expenses of the Mint in the year 1814, as to repairs or alterations in the building or machinery, furniture, and all other charges. 4. An account of the quantity of money or tokens coined in the New Mint since the establishment of the same, distinguishing gold from silver." Mr. Wellesley Pole said he had not the slightest objection to granting the information for which the hon. gentleman had moved. With respect to the houses alluded to, he observed, that it was considered desirable to accommodate a certain number of persons who had been imported' from Birmingham, for the purpose of managing the machinery of the new mint, within its walls; but it was found impracticable, notwithstanding the extent of the edifice-hence it was determined to erect the buildings in question, which would be effected with every regard to economy. to. The motions were then put and agreed MOTION FOR EXTENDING THE PROPERTY-TAX TO IRELAND.] Mr. Bankes moved that the 7th Article of the Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland be read, which was read accordingly. The hon. gentleman then said, that he moved to have that Article read to show gentlemen who might be unwilling to accede to his motion, that it was far from his intention to move for any thing contrary to that Article. So far from wishing for any thing hostile to the interests of Ireland, the measure he had to propose, would be, he sincerely believed, of extreme benefit not only to the empire in general, but to Ireland herself. This he considered a new era of taxation, and the Propertytax should be looked on as a tax that was to exist for a great number of years. It (31) then should be considered how taxation | taxation, and a mode that he thought was should fall most equally over the entire as well adapted to Ireland as to this empire, and he must raise his voice against country. He was discharging a disagreethe injustice of having the rich of Greatable duty; but, however, from what he Britain subject to such a heavy tax as that considered his duty he would not shrink. under present consideration, while the He had taken a vast deal of trouble to prorich of another part of the empire were cure the best information possible on the exempt. Great Britain afforded the in- subject. He found that Ireland was defiteresting phenomenon of a nation inferior cient in contributing her proper share to in population to many others yielding a the burthens of the empire; and though larger sum of taxation than others of far she had certainly contributed not a little, greater population, and with a less degree it was not just that she should not contriof complaint than most nations paid their bute in an equal proportion with Great taxes. This must be owing to some Britain. But he considered that it was the more wise and equal mode of laying on Property-tax which mainly enabled Great taxes. This wise and equal mode of taxa- Britain to contribute more in proportion tion would be found only in apportioning than Ireland had done; and if Ireland it to property; and, in fact, what was so had that tax, she could have contributed proper a source of taxation as property in her due proportion. He then proHe would wish, then, that that source of ceeded to remark on the superior advantaxation should be introduced into Ireland. tages of the Property-tax to those taxes. It would certainly be a better source of which Ireland now paid, under which taxation than those articles which were there was a great facility of evasion, and used by the poor classes of society. The an enormous expense of collection. The tax on soap, for instance, bore on those expense of collecting the revenue in Engwho were least able to bear taxation. land, under the ordinary heads, was 61. 3s. There was also another circumstance to 11d. per cent.; of those in Ireland 147. be attended to in laying on taxes. A tax 13s. per cent. The expense of collecting which would have a demoralizing ten- the Property-tax was only 21. 3s. 5d. per dency was certainly in that respect a cent. It was therefore the most advantamuch worse one than any other. The geous tax, as the great proportion of what tax on spirits and distilleries he had consi. was levied on the country came into the dered in that light. Here the hon. gen- Exchequer. The imposition of this tax in tleman read an address from the distillers Ireland was far from being a violation of of Ireland to the Lord Lieutenant, in cor- the Union, contemplated in that Act, and roboration of his opinion. The duty on mentioned as the eventual means of estidistilleries was so high, that private and mating the relative power of the two illegal distillation was the consequence, countries. The state of the finances of and spirits were sold much cheaper in Ireland rendered the adoption of some some places than they could be, if they such measure most urgent. According to were only taxed fairly, and illicit distilla- the last accounts, the ordinary revenue of tion in consequence not resorted to. Ireland was 5,100,000l.; the interest of the Besides, the duties on distillation in many funded debt 5,400,000l., leaving a defiparts of that country could not be col- ciency of 300,000l. There was an extra. lected without the assistance of the mili- ordinary revenue, consisting of repayments tary. This tended to make the laws be from Great Britain, of 304,000l. in the held in less respect in that country; for present year; but on the other hand, there where resistance to the law was resorted was the interest of the unfunded debt, to with facility in one instance, the vene- being 125,000l. ; charges of the Irish debt ration for it was diminished in every funded in this country, 23,000l. ; interest of instance. The hon. gentleman then pro- the loan of 1811 for the service of Ireland, ceeded to show that his motion would not 279,000. The revenue, therefore, extracontravene the Articles of the Union, ordinary and ordinary, was 5,400,000l. ; which provided that the taxation of Ire- the expense of the debt, 5,900,000%. land should be but in proportion of two- There was besides a debt of 11,600,000l. seventeenths to that of Great Britain, for due to Great Britain, consisting of twenty years, and then that it should 6,100,000l. excess of expense on the part undergo a revision. He was not for equa- of Great Britain above the portion stipulizing the taxes on the countries, but only lated for in the Act of Union; 4,500,000l. for extending to Ireland the best mode of a loan raised in 1811 for the service be collected without the military? His measure would make the collection of taxes easy, and would have a tendency to make the people amenable to the laws. Therefore, supposing it as turbulent and unlawful as it had been by some persons represented to be, this tax would be properly applied to that country. The lower class would be entirely exempted from it; and those who would be subject to it, were those who were most likely to hold the laws in the highest respect. The man of 50l. a year would not be at all affected by it. The principle of the tax he considered fair to Ireland as well as to England; for though one was a poorer and the other a richer country, and though ten millions on a poor country would be a heavier burthen than ten millions on a rich country, yet a tenth or a fifth part of the property of each would leave them both in the same relative situation to each other. Another advantage of this tax was, that it could be collected cheaper than the present taxation of Ireland was. He did not mean to say that the tax was an advantage in itself and abstractedly taken; for all taxes were grievances; however necessary, and he did not suppose that the people of England were fonder of them for their own sake than the people of Ireland; but he meant a comparative advantage. The Propertytax was collected in England for 21. 3s. 5d. per cent., while the collection of the taxation of Ireland cost 14. 13s. per cent. Besides, the officers in the employment of collecting the present taxes could be employed in the collection of this tax. The general principle of the measure was then the only thing to be cunsidered. Ireland ought to bear her share of the general taxation, and her taxation ought to be put on the best footing. Ireland, he allowed, had made great exertions, but he lamented that those exertions had not been more judiciously applied. If instead of many other of her taxes, she had had this tax since the Union, he was convinced she would now be a much richer, happier, and more prosperous country. It was not the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland who was to dictate what taxes were or were not fit for her; no, nor even the whole of the members for Ireland: but it was the aggregate wisdom of that House that was to determine what were the taxes most suitable to her. She was a country with an increasing debt, and a decreasing revenue; in the three of Ireland by this country, and 3 years interest of that loan, being 1,046,000l. Though there was such a deficiency in the revenue of Ireland, there was still to be provided for her share the current expenditure, which at the rate of the expenditure of the last year, was 9,100,000l. The whole of this, together with the 500,000l. excess of the interest of debt above the revenue, was to be provided for. It was, and always had been the practice to raise a great portion of the revenue of Ireland by loans, to such an extent, that if Great Britain had followed that plan to the same extent, the capital of our debt would have exceeded its present nominal amount by 400,000,000. of stock, or about 223,000,000l. in money. Ireland ought not to be suffered to run on in the system of borrowing, till she would be no longer able to pay. She was too much in the system of having recourse to loans, which she had raised at 7 per cent. She had gone back in the last three years four hundred thousand pounds, and was unable even to pay the interest of her debt. But what article would gentlemen say could bear an increase of taxation in Ireland? Could the distilleries or the imports into Ireland bear it? The increase of revenue in 1812, was only in duties on ditilleries, tobacco, &c.: in 1813, on tobacco, hides, and distilleries: in 1814, on auctions, East-India goods, stamps, postage, and a new schedule of the customs. He could not conceive that the present system was advantageous to Ireland, as it was only running her deeper in debt. It was not beneficial to England, as it did not enable Ireland to pay her proportion to the joint expendi ture. The hon. gentleman then argued, that as the people of Ireland were assimilated to the people of England in manners and civilization, their system of taxation ought to be assimilated. He did not mean to propose the time or the propor tion in which this tax should be extended to Ireland, but he looked to it as an event which ought to be adopted at no great distance. The collection of taxes in Ireland was at present attended with much difficulty. The taxation on distilleries could not be collected in many parts of that country without the assistance of the military. In part of the county of Donegal, soldiers were regularly obliged to be called out to assist in the collection of taxes from the distilleries. What was the state of the country where the taxes could not last years she had a deficiency of 400,000l. ticularly as he feared that he was laHe calculated up to the 5th of last Ja- bouring under severe indisposition; but nuary. The fact was, that the people of he was anxious, called upon as he had Ireland must have some tax, and there been, so distinctly and repeatedly by the fore there ought to be no hesitation in hon. gentleman in the course of his adopting a mode of taxation which had speech, not to lose any time in setting been found so beneficial to this country; himself right in the eyes of the House and a mode which alone had enabled us to of the country-and he flattered himself look the dangers which threatened us in he should be able to show how comthe face. The Property-tax had been pletely unfounded the basis was, upon proposed for England, as if it was to last which the hon. gentleman had rested the only one year; but he was sure if the whole of his argument. But before he question could be put with propriety to proceeded to advert to what had fallen his right hon. friend, he would say, that from the hon. gentleman, the House would he would by no means recommend the forgive him, if he expressed his regret, taking it off at that period, as he must be that his hon. friend (Mr. Davies Giddy) aware that it would be impossible to part had been induced to second the motion, with a tax so serviceable and indispensable agreeing, as he did, with the hon. mover in the situation in which the country was only upon general principles, but differing about to be plunged; and it was equally from him on the most important point, impossible for this part of the empire namely, the applicability of the measure to bear any longer to give Ireland such to Ireland at the present period. For the favour with respect to the Property-tax hon. gentleman, who seconded the motion, as would throw upon England the whole had distinctly stated, that he doubted of the burthen. The hon. gentleman both the policy and the practicability of concluded with moving, "That, for the carrying the motion into effect at present, purpose of carrying the seventh article and had adverted to the expediency, or of the Treaty of Union more effec- perhaps the necessity, of a revision of the tually into execution, and for enabling principles upon which the joint contribu Ireland to defray the proportionate part tions of Great Britain and Ireland were of the joint contribution stipulated therein, founded at the Union. He was happy to it is expedient that the profits arising have it in his power to do justice to the from property, professions, trades, and sentiments by which that hon. gentleman offices, within that part of the United was animated every where, but particuKingdom, be made available towards that larly in the committee which had been object." appointed to examine into the state of the finances of Ireland. The question now before the House was of much too high a nature, and embraced too many important considerations, to be argued or decided upon the narrow grounds which the hon. gentleman had urged to the House. It was much too great a question to be treated as a mere naked measure of finance. In considering a question of this nature, it was necessary that the House should bear in mind-indeed, it was impossible to put out of view-the political, the local, the natural state of that country, of which the hon. gentleman had candidly confessed himself to be completely ignorant; or he would rather say, with respect to which the hon. gentleman certainly wanted a great deal of information. The very arguments which he had urged, and the conclusions he had drawn, showed how completely misinformed he was with respect to the state of Ireland. Mr. Davies Giddy said, he had not come to the House with any view of seconding the motion; but after what he had heard, he could not suffer it to fall to the ground, and would therefore support it. He coincided with a great deal of what had been said by the hon. mover, but yet he expressed his unwillingness to press the extension of the Property-tax to Ireland at present, especially as a committee above stairs was occupied in examining the financial concerns of that country; and he was free to say, that if it should appear to that committee that Ireland was incapable of contributing two-seventeenths of the expence of the united empire, he should be ready to en tertain a proposition for reducing that proportion, although it was so settled at the period of the Union. Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald said, that he should most willingly have given way to the right hon. baronet (sir J. Newport, who rose at the same time that he did), par He should now proceed to follow the hon. gentleman through his statements, |