ever been engaged; that spirit, he knew, was not extinct; and if we were again to assume the proud character which in the last war we had sustained, not less by the firm perseverance of the people, than by the successes of those armies whom a Wellington led, we should find, in that public spirit and constancy, which all classes of society had manifested, resources for the contest-far, far beyond what a measure of finance could give, or any revenues, from either country, though they had been called war's sinews, and were no contemptible weapons of war. But while he admitted all this-while he admitted that public spirit which he was convinced, in many instances, would not evade the fair, the legitimate, the lavish contribution to the public exigency; yet, had we not heard hon. gentlemen, even while approving the principle, yet com plaining of its inquisitorial power? Upon what ground does my right hon. friend (Mr. Vansittart) resist the modifications which are so earnestly proposed, but that it is his duty to guard against those evasions which, even in England, would be attempted-which in every country would be attempted, and which, if the hon. gentleman would prevent in Ireland, he must give us something more than his naked resolution-something more than a mere assertion of principle;-he must show us that assimilation is not only good, but will be productive in a greater degree, than the application of any other principles is likely to prove. But, how productive? By what machinery does he propose that his duties are to be collected? Does he expect to find a class of men en corresponding to those who act as commissioners of the Property-tax in that part of the United Kingdom with which he is acquainted, who are to be our unsalaried commissioners? To whom, said the right hon. gentleman, are we to confide this inquisition of a people? I would rather dwell with pleasure on those traits of national character, of which, as an Irishman, I am proud, than on that state of our society, than on those habits of our gentry, those unhappy feelings which religious and political differences have produced, and any or all of which leave us without that body of persons, who in England discharge so many important duties, and to whom none are confided more important than this. But, Sir, look at your own Acts; look at the complicated machinery which you employ, look at the corrected failures of one system, and the anticipated failure of another-in the first instance, the commissioners of your Land-tax to be commissioners of this Act, and to be chosen at a general meeting convened by the sheriff; the hon. gentleman is perhaps not aware that we have no persons in Ireland corresponding with them-yet these, Sir, are to choose commissioners, from whom I know not. I will not weary the House with the enumeration in the detail, but I think there are 57 cases of commissioners enumerated in the different Acts. I do not now refer to this as a further illustration of the inexpediency, of the absurdity, I had almost said, of creating this fabric for even a single year. I do not desire or wish to prove further than I have already done, how ridiculous it would be to enact for this year, to take as the source of that revenue which ought to flow into the Exchequer before that year is elapsed, a system of complicated operation, which it would take three years of industry equal to the hon. gentleman's, and of a zealous desire to collect Irish revenues, not less than his, to make available or productive: but I refer to this, to show that all the revenue which the hon. gentleman would thus collect, is not to be considered as clear gain. I believe he has more than once adverted to the expense of the collection of our revenue: I hope he will find in many branches of it, that since I have had the honour of adminis tering that department, that expense has been diminished. At the same time it is inevitably greater than the example of Great Britain would lead those who are unacquainted with the subject to expect: but what is to be the expense of these new establishments in Ireland ?—At least, we do not desire what I have seen some of the public prints impute to my right hon. friend (Mr. Vansittart), as his motive for continuing the tax in England-this multiplication of new appointments, those armies of well-paid commissioners and assessors, whom the hon. gentleman, contrary to his ancient principles of economy, would create. In a word, Sir, the expense would interfere seriously, indeed, with the hon. gentleman's project, however plausible it may seem. I am convinced, that, after the deductions which I have stated-after allowing for the expense which would attend its collection, the residue would not only not supersede the necessity of a great loan, would not only not enable us, after the example of England, to raise within the year, those supplies which the expenditure of the coming year will call for, but that its produce would fall far short of those taxes which it will be my duty to propose as provision for the Loan. They will be, I lament to say, of unexampled amount; but I shall not shrink from my duty in proposing, and I trust the country, even by these discussions, will not be unprepared to bear them; this will afford a permanent provision for the interest of that debt which we must contract, while the proposition of the hon. gentleman would give us only a tax for a single year-a tax which, if he is sincere in hoping that it will last in England only for the period of its present proposed enactment, he must also hope that we should be obliged, in Ireland, to repeal it; and I would ask him, where the public creditor was to look for his permanent security, or if he would be then ready to suggest other measures to supply the necessary deficiency of our revenue? I think, Sir, that I have stated enough to justify me in resisting the hon. gentleman's motion, and in calling upon the House to resist it. I have shown, I hope to the satisfaction of the House, that the tax being proposed in England for one year, it could not be taken as a permanent provision for payment of that debt which we must create. I think I have a right to say, that this measure which he suggests, could not be fairly in operation until long after that period at which we hope to see its expiration in Great Britain. I have endeavoured to prove that so large a proportion of your duty in England must be affected by the deduction which in common fairness must be made, that even you would have to find fresh means, to no inconsiderable amount, to compensate that deficiency; and I am firmly convinced, that without reference to any local or political circumstances of the country, the creation of a system so widely complicated, and of such accumulated expense, would detract so much from the internal produce of the tax, that, if I had been satisfied to take this alone as the provision for the present year, in the expectation that it would be sufficient, I should have been deceiving both Parliament and myself. In what I have ventured to offer, I have taken a view only comparative of the motion of which the hon. gentleman has made, and of the means to which I shall myself recur. It is not from any fear of public obloquy, that I avoid what he calls the only statesman-like measure of finance. I am not ashamed to avow that I value popularity; I should be ashamed of myself if I did not; but it is that popularity which follows one's actions, and not which one's actions follow. If the necessities of the country should still unhappily continue, and we are to be placed either on a war expenditure, or obliged to continue in that state of military preparation of which the expenditure is as great as that of war, it may be my duty to propose to Parliament, a measure as strong as that which now I deprecate; from the performance of that duty I shall not shrink. I shall find in the public necessity my justification, if indeed any justification be necessary in the eyes of those who have never been backward when they could prove their attachment to the common cause; when they could participate in your dangers, or contribute to the glory of the empire. Sir, I shall say no more-what my feelings are on this subject is of little moment; but Ireland awaits with hope and with confidence the decision of the House of Commons. Sir John Newport declared, that, the right hon. gentleman had so ably vindicated the state and exertions of Ireland, that he had left him little to say. In 14 years since the Union, Ireland had brought into the Exchequer of the country considerably upwards of 60 millions, or more than four millions and a half annually, by taxes, exclusively of what she had been called on to produce by way of loan. He trusted the House would not vote an abstract proposition of this nature, as it would throw a firebrand of irreparable injury between both countries, which would be most fatal to Ireland. Mr. Peel made a few observations in support of the arguments of his right hon. friend, (Mr. V. Fitzgerald). If a tax were proposed, the collection of which was not feasible, it was doing nothing whatever for the country. He thought the Property-tax of England might operate for Ireland as an Absentee tax. Sir H. Montgomery said, he had in all the stages opposed the renewal of the Property-tax, as the means of entering into a new war, which he deprecated as ruinous to the finances and security of the country. He agreed with the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer, that persons com. petent to assess and collect the tax in Ireland were not to be found, and that, therefore, it was particularly unfit to be introduced into Ireland. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland had estimated the annual amount of absentee income, which was spent in this country, and from which Ireland derived no benefit, at three millions annually, and the amount of the interest of debt payable to English creditors at four millions; the Income-tax on which, amounting to 700,000l. year, ought in justice to be carried to the credit of Ireland, which would make good the present deficiency in the revenue, and provide for the loan of the year. In reply to the Secretary for Ireland he said, there was this difference in the tax proposed in the Irish parliament on absentees and the present tax, that the first was receivable in aid of the Irish revenue, and the present tax was payable into the Treasury of England. Mr. Grattan observed, that he had heard with the greatest pleasure the able arguments of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, and that he entirely coincided in opinion with him on the subject. Mr. Bankes replied. After which the House divided: MOTION RESPECTING BALANCES IN THE HANDS OF THE BANK OF ENGLAND, &c.] Mr. Grenfell said, he understood that the production of the Papers, which he had moved for on a former evening, respecting the Balances of Public Money in the hands of the Bank of England, would no longer be opposed by the right hon. gentleman opposite. He did not feel it necessary at present to enter at any great length into the subject; but he hoped the House would indulge him a very few minutes while he submitted one or two observations to them. It had been stated the other night, by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that by far the greatest proportion of the Public Balances in the hands of the Bank of England would be found, on examination, to be derived from the Consolidated Fund, and that they were, therefore, beyond the control of the Public. To this doctrine, if by the control of the public was I meant the control of the Executive month, between the 1st of February 1807 and 1st of April 1815, inclusive, resulting from payments under the head of Customs, and of all other branches of the public revenue, stating the average balance in each year, made up from the said days. 2. An Account of the Balances of Cash in the hands of the Bank of England on the 1st and 15th days of each month, between the 1st of February 1807 and the 1st of April 1815, inclusive, resulting from the Postmaster-general's account with the Bank, stating the average balance in each year, made up from the said days. 3. An Account of the Balances of Cash in the hands of the Bank of England on the 1st and 15th days of each month, between the 1st of February 1807 and 1st of April 1815, inclusive, belonging to the different departments of the Government, including the Balances of the Accountant-general of the Court of Chancery, and stating the average balance in each year, made up from the said days. 4. An Account of the Exchequer-bills and Bank-notes deposited by the Governor and Company of the Bank of England as Cash in the chests of the four Tellers in his Majesty's receipt of Exchequer on the 7th of August 1807, and on every 28th day subsequent to that period, down to the 1st of April 1815. 5. An Account of the Balance of the Account of the American Commissioners, and of all other Public Balances not particularly specified in the four preceding Accounts with the Bank of England, on the 1st of January in each year, from the year 1808 to the year 1815, inclusive; distinguishing the amount under each head respectively. 6. An Account of the total amount of Unclaimed Dividends in the hands of the Bank at the periods immediately preceding the payment of the quarterly dividends since January 1807. 7. An Account of all other Allowances made by the Public to the Bank, or charged by the Bank against the public, not specified in an Account respecting the charge for the management of the public debt, ordered to be laid before the House on the 19th instant, for transacting any other public service in the years 1813 and 1814, describing the nature of the services and the amount charged thereon in each of its public duty should lend itself to the object. Nay, the object was practicable even on the supposition that the Bank of England should be so far unmindful of the duties which it owed to the public, as to oppose the arrangement. He hoped, after what he had now said, that no gentleman would contend that there was any thing impracticable in the application of this regulation to the balances in the hands of the Bank of England; and provided along with this there should be a reduction of their charge for the management of the public debt, the effect would be to produce a saving of between five and six hundred thousand pounds per annum, which was equal to the interest on a loan of ten millions, still leaving an ample and liberal allowance to the Bank of England. He wished to allude to one other point, the statement of the income of the Bank of England, derivable either from the transactions which they carried on for the public, or as shown from the documents on the table of the House. The first head of the income of the Bank was that derived from the circulation of their paper. The amount of this circulation at one period was not less than 31 millions; but he was aware that the amount had been reduced. He was not, however, giving an exaggerated statement when he fixed the average at twenty-seven millions. He took the income from this source at 1,390,000l. The next head of income was the balances in the hands of the Bank. The amount in 1807, was 11,500,000l. Deducting 3 millions, lent to the public without interest, there remained in their hands 8,500,000l. The profit from this was 425,000l. The third head was that which they were paid for managing the public debt. He had already stated this at 267,000l. to which must be added an allowance for a house, of which he did not know the meaning, of 4000l. making in all 271,000. The fourth head, consisting of interest paid by the public to the Bank, amounted to 330,000l. The amount from all these sources was 2,376,000l. He had confined himself to all those sources of income, either derivable from the public, or appearing in the papers before the House, without any reference to their private business. The hon. gen-year respectively." tleman concluded with moving, that there The Chancellor of the Exchequer was disbe laid before the House the following posed to coincide in the motion. The Papers: 1. "An Account of the Balances hon. gentleman's statement of the profit of Cash in the hands of the Bank of Eng-of the Bank was exaggerated; he had not land on the 1st and 15th days of each allowed for a great variety of charges. With respect to the analogy contended for in the case of unclaimed dividends, it did not hold. The amount of such dividends might be called dead cash, and could by no arrangement become the property of the Bank. Government were the supposed general heirs in all such cases; whatever had no claimant, was considered to belong to the public at large. Mr. Ponsonby said, the agreement which had now taken place between the two sides of the House, had been anticipated by him from their approach to one another in point of numbers on the late vote. He did not think that for a long time a motion had been brought forward so likely to produce solid benefit to the public. He hoped it would be understood that there was no disposition to infringe upon the agreement actually subsisting between Government and the Bank; but he hoped it would be understood also, that no new agreement would be entered into till the House had an opportunity of considering these papers. Mr. Mellish said, he had voted against the production of the accounts, only because he thought it unjust and unfair that the Act passed so late as March last, by which the public faith was pledged, should be in any iota disturbed. Mr. Peter Moore said, it was a most preposterous proposition, that the public should be obliged to pay the Bank interest for three millions lent to them out of their own money, and leave a balance of nine millions besides. Such a doctrine did not suit the present times, when all classes were borne down by the weight of taxes. The hon. gentleman then went into the consideration of the audit of the public accounts, for which 60,000l. was paid, without preventing an accumulation of the unaudited accounts. Mr. Manning said a few words upon the security the Bank possessed in an Act of Parliament, which pledged the faith of the House. Mr. Baring expressed his wish that the subject should be postponed to the next session. He complained that Mr. Grenfell's statements were exaggerated. Lord A. Hamilton supported the motion. Mr. Marryatt thought it the duty of the House to take care that the Government did not enter into disadvantageous engage ments with the Bank. Mr. Grenfell shortly replied, denying that he had ever intended to interfere with the contract now subsisting with the Bank. He admitted that the expenses of the establishment of the Bank were to be deducted from the profits, but could not agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was necessary for the Bank to hold one shilling in reserve to answer demands; for those demands were always paid in paper since the passing of the Restriction Act. The motions were agreed to. HOUSE OF LORDS. TREATY SIGNED AT VIENNA ON THE 25TH OF MARCH.] Marquis Wellesley rose and said : My Lords; I rise for the purpose of moving that the Order of the Day for our taking into consideration to-morrow the conduct observed by Congress towards Saxony be discharged. It is some time since I distinctly stated to your lordships, that in my opinion the best course to be pursued with respect to this subject, was for his Majesty's ministers to give to Parliament a full and detailed explanation of the whole of the transactions which have taken place at Vienna, instead of waiting until partial intelligence should be extracted from them by any such motion as that which it was my intention to make tomorrow. Finding, however, that his Majesty's ministers did not think proper to adopt this suggestion, and conceiving that the particular treatment of Saxony demanded early and serious attention, I gave that notice of a motion which I am now desirous for the present to withdraw. I am desirous to withdraw it, my lords, in the first place, because, from the tendency of a paper which has been laid on your lordships' table, I am inclined to hope that at no very distant period his Majesty's ministers will be induced to afford Parliament spontaneous information on the subject. In that expectation, I am led to postpone my motion for a few days, in order to ascertain whether that will or will not be the case. But, my lords, I am rendered still more desirous to withdraw my motion for the present, by the very serious reflections which have occurred to me, and which must have occurred to every one of your lordships, on the perusal of the document which has recently been laid before Parliament-I mean the Treaty signed at Vienna on the 25th of March;-a document, on the fundamental principle of which, I will abstain from making many |