the laws for the maintenance of the Poor, sir Edward Astley in the chair, Mr. Rolle earnestly entreated the committee to favour him with their attention to a subject in which every man in this country was more or less interested; the state, condition, and maintenance of the such an extensive system, and went to such very important consequences, he hoped the hon. gentleman would not persist in pushing it forward this session; particularly as the advanced period would not allow sufficient time for that degree of investigation which such a subject was entitled to. Besides, it would be ex-poor. It was a subject so extensive in its tremely dangerous to take any step which might have the smallest tendency to discredit the present existing system, before proper data and principles should be established whereon to found another. Such principles ought to be again and again considered before they should be adopted, and ought to be fully weighed and settled by those learned and able men who filled the highest stations in the Law department. * Mr. Minchin said, that when the right hon. gentleman had talked of the late period of the session, he must not have heard him distinctly, for he had expressly said, he did not mean that the commissioners should be members of parliament, nor that their inquiry should be final; but that they should be professional men, and the result of their inquiry would afford the principles to ground a reform upon. His meaning was, to have had their report referred to the sages of the law, the Judges, and that they should, ultimately, decide upon what alteration would be wise and practicable. That the matter would be attended with some difficulty, he was ready to confess; but where men of sense were right at setting off, with perseverance, he was persuaded scarcely any thing was impracticable. As to the time of the year, he had chosen it on purpose; as a summer's recess from terms, and from business of another nature, would, in his mind, be the fittest to employ in such a research and revision, as those he had taken the liberty to suggest. He declared, he had not brought the matter forward as a party matter; he had not asked a single friend to come down to support him, as the state of the House proved; and if the right hon. gentleman would say, that he or any other gentleman would take the matter up, he would very heartily with draw his motion. The motion, by leave of the House, was accordingly withdrawn. Poor Laws-Settlement of Bastard Children.] April 30. The House having resolved itself into a committee of the whole House, to take into consideration consequences, that he should not have presumed to have taken the lead in such a very delicate and difficult business, had it not been at the express desire of his constituents, whose plan for the better regulation and provision of the poor, his worthy friend and himself were directed to submit to the consideration of the Legislature. In complying with their wishes, they should be happy in rendering any services to their country; at the same time, feeling the subject to be of the most public concern, they should hope and trust, not only for the indulgence of the committee, but the assistance of the House, in endeavouring to attain, what must be all their mutual wishes, a more comfortable subsistence for the poor, and a diminution of the very heavy and increasing rates. In the object they should not disagree, if they did in the mode. The principle, he was confident, the more it was examined, the more it would be approved of. If the principle were admitted, any alterations or amendments in the detail would be matters for future regulation. Wishing the plan to be duly considered, and thoroughly understood by the country before it was discussed, he should, for the present, only propose to bring in the Bill, fill up the blanks in the committee, and print it for the consideration of the members during the recess, to which he hoped there was no objection. He should not go minutely into the detail, but confine himself to the great outlines, with a few introductory observations. It was not his intention to move a repeal of any of the existing laws, as it was one recommendation of this plan, that it was not meant to repeal, but to aid, strengthen, and enforce them. Experience convinced them of the necessity of amendments from their present inefficacy. Whether these defects were in their formation or in their execution, he would not then discuss. This plan had four principal objects in view, maintenance, settlement, vagrancy, and bastards. Whether it might not be proper to have a separate Bill for each, would be matter for future consideration. He wished them all to remain in the present Bill as component parts of one great sys-comfort and consolation to the poor, to tem. To prove the increase of the poor, relieve the distresses of the subject, to and the intolerable burthen of the rates, give a spur to industry, to promote ecohe need only appeal to the feeling of every comy, and to encourage population. The person who paid the rate. If any enter- measure was founded on the basis of the tained doubts, he would refer them to the present friendly clubs or societies, which returns before the House, and to the ob- had been successfully established, and adservations of a very respectable member, vantageously adapted to the comfort of whose indefatigable attention to that sub- the poor, and the diminution of the rates ject entitled him to the thanks of his in many counties. They had constantly country. They would find that the me- flourished under many disadvantages dium annual expenses of the years 1783,4, the uncertainty of the tenure-the flucand 5, were at least half a million annually tuation of the body-the insecurity of the more than they were in 1776, exclusive fund-the misapplication and often emof casualties. This increase might be at- bezzlement of the capital, without any tributed to various causes, the difference legal power of restoration or restitution. in the value of money, the advanced prices These obstacles were all removed by this in almost every article of life, the luxury scheme, which established one general and dissipation of the age, the immorality club or fund throughout the kingdom, and bad example of the great and opulent, with permanency to the body and security too often copied, and too frequently adopted to the capital. The fund was to be raised by their inferiors and dependants, or in- by obliging the rich, in a certain limited attention to the education of the young, proportion, to become contributors to the by not training them up in a way to get benefit of the poor, and to oblige the their livelihood, and to become useful poor, whilst young and in health, to conmembers of the community; an aversion tribute towards their own support when to labour and industry in some who spend disabled by sickness, accident or age. every thing in the prime of life, from a This might, at first view, be thought an firm reliance and certainty of being finally oppression of the poor to the advantage supported by parish relief. There were of the rich. The advantage to the rich others who had the inclination, but not he would admit, but not the oppression; the means or encouragement. The de- on the contrary, it would prove the means sertion and decay of family mansions was of affording them ease, comfort, happiness, a very serious injury and loss to the poor and satisfaction. It might be said, were in the country. In the decrease of labour, not the rich bound to maintain the poor? temporary assistance in the time of need Were their estates free till they had paid or sickness, by being opportunely applied, those taxes? Was it not then unjust to might save many from ruin, destruction, relieve their own shoulders to lay it on the and an untimely end. The most idle and poor? If the fact was true, that the tax reprobate pauper in this metropolis had would fall wholly on the poor, he would many more advantages than the most in- acquiesce; but he was clear that it would dustrious in the country. Perhaps the fall alternately on the employer and farmer, former was supported by the very bounty in such a proportion as he could not obwhich had been derived from the sweat of ject to. the brow of the latter. He supposed that charity was too frequently abused. He did not give this as a general rule without exceptions. These were misfortunes, which, from the temper and fashion of the times, could not be cured. There was another cause for the decrease of labour, and its consequence, population. The enlargement of farms, by throwing two or three into one. Each most probably before afforded a maintenance to a distinct family, employing more servants and workmen than when consolidated. This might be prevented; but it made no part of the present scheme. The object of this plan was, to afford He would first state the terms of subscription by the poor; then the comforts and benefits it would insure; and, likewise, the advantage it would be to the rich. The weekly subscription of 2d. each would entitle a person to 4s. when confined in bed; 2s. walking; 1s. per week for each child above two years of age; 10d. after 65, if unable to get 3d.; 1s. 44d. after 70, and 3s. after 75, or sooner, if incapable of all labour. The subscription for women was 14d. weekly. By so small a subscription out of the savings of youth, he would insure a certain subsistence in the times of sickness, accident or old age; an increase of children would not be dreaded, By this plan, the mother was to be examined, but not removed, and her settlement was to be the settlement of the child. as it would prove an increase of resource, and prevent the dread of leaving them to the mercy of the parish, or unprovided for at their death; they would never be liable-Having given the outlines of the plan to be dragged from their residence to be very imperfectly, he said he should hope imprisoned in the walls of a distant work- there would be no objection to submit the house. They might have an opportunity plan to the consideration of the Commitof spending their latter days wherever it tee. It was a subject which called loudly was most comfortable and convenient. for their attention. It called more parThey would be free and independent, and ticularly for the attention of his Majesty's would not be subject to the oppression or Government, because every regulation tyranny of a parish officer; these benefits which tended to relieve the distresses of and comforts would be alone sufficient to the poor, to promote population and dimido away all suspicion of oppression; but nish the rates, must in its consequences he could add others. There was one, better enable the subject to pay the neceswhich he considered to be the natural sary taxes of the state, and to strengthen right of every subject-that he should the kingdom. have an opportunity of earning his bread without molestation, wherever it was most convenient; and he would enjoy the liberty of removing whenever he pleased, on the production of a certificate of his subscription and settlement. With this security he might be allowed to continue his subscription wherever he resided. This certificate would have a tendency to check unnecessary and expensive litigation, and Debate on the Prince of Wales's Debts.] to the discovery and commitment of the Mr. Alderman Newnham rose, in consereal vagrant. There was another exemp-quence of what had passed on Friday. He tion in this Bill from a tax which was a manifest oppression of the poor to the sole benefit of the rich, to be obliged to compound or work in the repair of roads, which he seldom if ever travelled. Having stated the benefits to the poor, he would now point out the advantages to the rich. Even to be the means of affording such comforts would be in itself a sufficient satisfaction for the adoption of the measure. He would likewise prove it to be a saving to the rich, by the statement of a case, and that in the strongest manner. He would suppose a gentleman to have a farm at 2001. a year, and that the complement of the servants and workmen were fifty, double the number sufficient to manage it; he would suppose the present rates to be 2s. 6d. in the pound, total 251. the subscription for each servant to be 8s. per annum. If the owner or occupier paid the whole for fifty, the total was only 20l. per annum, a clear saving of 51. per annum. If twenty-five servants, then there would be a saving of 10/. There was one other clause, which he most heartily approved of, with respect to bastard children. By the precept at present, wherever the child was born he was settled. This had been frequently the occasion of the most cruel treatment. Mr. Young and Mr. Gilbert said a few words each, in favour of the plan, after which the motion was agreed to, and the chairman reported it to the House, as follows: "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the more effectual relief of the Poor, and ascertaining the settlement of Bastard Children." had, on that day, declared, that, in bringing forward a motion with a view to rescue the Prince of Wales from his present embarrassed situation, he was actuated by motives of the sincerest loyalty, and the most profound respect and reverence for his Majesty, and that as a mode the least liable to exception, he had thought of an humble Address to his Majesty; but in giving notice of such his intention, he had himself desired not to be considered as pledged to the wording of the Address. On that occasion, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, that of all other modes of application, that of an Address to the Throne was the most exceptionable that could be chosen. As therefore his wish was to make the application in a mode the least exceptionable, he rose to desire not to be pinned down to the mode of applying by an Address, and to say, that if the right hon. gentleman would point out a mode of application the most unexceptionable, and the least likely to provoke resistance, he would readily adopt that mode in preference to any which might occur to him. On Friday last, much personal application had been made to him from various quarters of the House, to press him to forego his purpose; and much had been said of the dangerous consequences which might result from the | ceed by moving an Address, he had heard discussion of such a subject. One gen- the Chancellor of the Exchequer throw tleman had gone so far as to contend, that out certain hints, which appeared to his it would draw on questions affecting mind extremely like a menace, and that Church and State. That expression, of a very extraordinary nature; but those coupled with certain hints which fell from hints had, he understood, on Friday last, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had in- been much narrowed by explanation, and duced him, as well as other members, to confined to certain correspondence and suspect, that in order to deter him from letters which had passed upon the subject persisting in bringing forward the motion, without doors. On Friday he had learned matters of singular delicacy were to be that an hon. friend of his had answered agitated without reserve. The Chancellor what had been said by an hon. gentleman of the Exchequer had indeed explained over the way, and had declared, that he his meaning in a way satisfactory to the did not speak lightly, or without authority, House, and in his opinion, the gentleman when he asserted, that his Royal Highness who had made use of the expressions rela- did not wish to shrink from any inquiry tive to Church and State, was bound, as a which it might be thought necessary to inan of honour, to come to an open ex- institute. In like manner, Mr. Fox said, planation of what he meant by the allu- he desired to be understood as not speaksion. Mr. Newnham said, though he ing lightly, but as speaking from the immight be thought rash and presumptuous, mediate authority of the Prince of Wales, had he given notice of his intention to when he assured the House, that there move the House on so delicate a subject, was no part of his Royal Highness's conon the suggestion of his own mind, and as duct that he was either afraid or unwilling a private and individual member of par- to have investigated in the most minute liament, he trusted that he should not, manner. With regard to the private coreven in that case, have shown himself to respondence alluded to, he wished to have possess such weak nerves, as to be alarmed it laid before the House, because it would and driven from his purpose by any re- prove that the conduct of his Royal Highmarks which had been made in the course ness had been in the highest degree of that day; but as he was not that rash amiable; and would present an uniform and presumptuous man, but had been au- and a perfect picture of duty and obethorized by his Royal Highness to make dience; as much so as ever, in any inthe proposed motion and to agitate the stance, had been shown from a son to his subject, the House could not suppose, let father, or from a subject to his sovereign. his nerves be ever so weak, that the Prince was to be terrified and driven from his purpose, by idle and groundless apprehensions. His Royal Highness, he was authorised to say, would not shrink from any inquiry, of any sort which the discussion of the subject might make necessary; but at the same time it was his Royal Highness's real desire, that the business might be conducted in a way the most respectful and the least exceptionable, and therefore, Mr. Newnham said, he wished not to be pinned down to an application by Address, since the Chancellor of the Exchequer had pronounced that to be the most exceptionable mode of application, and a mode which he was determined to resist. Mr. Fox observed, that not having heard that a subject of so much delicacy and importance was likely to be at all alluded to on Friday last, he had not come down to the House on that day. On a former occasion, when the worthy Alderman had given notice of his intention to pro With regard to the debt, which was the cause of his embarrassment, his Royal Highness, if the House should deem it necessary, was willing to give an account in writing of every part of it,-not of every single sum, or even of every thousand pound, for such an account the good sense of the House would see to be improper, if not impossible, but a general and fair account; and if any part of it was doubted, from a suspicion that this or that article of the account comprehended any sum or sums of money indirectly applied, his Royal Highness would give a clear explanation of the particulars, not to the House at large, indeed, but to his Majesty, or to his Majesty's ministers. He had not the smallest objection to afford the House every possible satisfaction, and there was not a circumstance of his Royal Highness's life which he was ashamed to have known. With respect to the allusion to something full of "danger to the Church and State," made by the hon. gentleman, one of the members for the county of Devon, till that gentleman thought proper to explain himself, it was impossible to say with any certainty to what that allusion referred; but he supposed it must be meant in reference to that miserable calumny, that low malicious falsehood, which had been propagated without doors, and made the wanton sport of the vulgar. In that House, where it was known how frequent and common the falsehoods of the times were, he hoped a tale only fit to impose on the lowest order of persons in the streets, would not have gained the smallest portion of credit; but when it appeared that an invention so monstrous, a report of a fact which had not the smallest degree of foundation, a report of a fact actually impossible to have happened, had been circulated with so much industry as to have made an impression on the minds of the members of that House, it proved at once the uncommon pains taken by the enemies of his Royal Highness to propagate the grossest and most malignant falsehoods, with a view to depreciate his character and injure him in the opinion of his country. Mr. Fox added, that when he considered that his Royal Highness was the first subject in the kingdom and the immediate heir to the throne, he was at a loss to imagine what species of party it was that could have fabricated so base and scandalous a calumny. Had there existed in the kingdom such a faction as an Anti-Brunswick faction, to that faction he should have certainly imputed the invention of so malicious a falsehood; for he knew not what other description of men could feel an interest in first forming and then circulating, with more than ordinary assiduity, a tale in every particular so unfounded, and for which there was not the shadow of any thing like reality. This being the fact, and as the occasion had made it necessary for him to declare as much, he hoped that it would have this good effect upon the House and upon the country, that it would teach both the one and the other to distrust the reports circulated to the prejudice of the Prince, and lessen any opinions that they might, in consequence, take up injurious to the character of his Royal Highness, who might be said to be a person in whose fair fame that House and the country were deeply interested. The whole of the debt the Prince was ready to submit to the investigation of the House; and he was equally ready to submit the other circumstance to which he had alluded, to their consideration, provided the consideration of a House of Parliament could, consistently with propriety and decency, be applied to such a subject. Nay, his Royal Highness had authorized him to declare, that, as a peer of Parliament, he was ready in the other House to submit to any the most pointed questions which could be put to him respecting it, or to afford his Majesty, or his Majesty's ministers, the fullest assurances of the utter falsehood of the fact in question, which never had, and which common sense must see, never could have happened. Mr. Fox said, he had thought it incumbent on him to say thus much in justification of his Royal Highness. He had only to add, that his Royal Highness certainly wished to have his situation taken into consideration; and that when it came under discussion, he had no desire to be regarded as wishing to shrink from any inquiry of any sort whatsoever. With regard to the alarming consequences talked of as likely to be the effect of such a discussion taking place, he saw no reason to dread any such consequences. Painful and delicate the subject undoubt edly was; but he must all along consider, that however painful it might prove, and however disagreeable the consequences might be, they were ascribable solely to those who had it in their power to supersede the necessity of his Royal Highness's application to Parliament to relieve him from a situation embarrassing to himself and disgraceful to the country. In conclusion Mr. Fox declared, that he thought the cause of the Prince the cause of every man who knew the true use of monarchy, and looked upon the family of the Sove reign as the property of the people, and as those in whom their dearest and most essential interests were so involved, as to make the happiness of the one the security of the other. Mr. Pitt solemnly declared, that no consideration whatsoever should have induced him to contest with other gentlemen, but the extreme importance of the subject, and his anxiety to do those most intimately concerned the fullest justice. He lamented to find that the notice which the hon. Alderman had given was now again renewed. He should not at present enter into a debate upon the question; but must observe upon what fell from the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, that |