trate had so fully stated why the landed interest was not to be wantonly sacrificed to the capricious speculations of the common-council of London, that he believed it would be unnecessary to say any thing farther on the subject. After the legislature had thought proper to repeal the laws against forestallers and regrators, he considered the petition, and the attempt to refer to the consideration of a committee, as an affront to the House. with flesh, and called from their merited fate into existence; but as he wished to treat the city of London with good humour, as they were willing to treat every body who visited them with good cheer, he hoped that so harsh a measure as the rejection of their petition would not be adopted; but that he might be permitted to move to put off the consideration of the motion till the 1st of August, by which time the aldermen would have had a sufficient number of delicious din the impropriety of their purpose, as well as of its being altogether unnecessary. Mr. Burke spoke of the commerce of provisions, opposing it to commerce properly so called, and begged leave to ask the worthy alderman who had introduced the business, whether he was not aware that a free commerce was that species of commerce most likely to flourish and to prosper? Let him, therefore, ask himself whether a free commerce in provisions was not likely to make a plentiful and a cheap market; and, as forestallers and regrators were in that kind of commerce, what the factor, the warehouseman, and the merchant were in the other, so let them alone, and then as great a variety, and as large a quantity of provisions would be brought to London (of itself an absolute desert in that particular respect), as of muslins, and silks and spices, and teas from the East; of lumber and staves and rice from the West; of furs and timber, and hemp, and pitch and tar, from the North; of slaves and gold-dust and drugs and colours, from the South. Mr. Burke observed, that he felt it difficult to refrain from smiling, whilst heners to convince them in their own way of discovered that the worthy aldermen and common council of London were so extremely anxious to be well fed. He presumed that the application to revive the laws against forestallers and regrators came from the aldermen concerned in it, after dinner; for their petition had all the marks of plenitude about it. It was an old saying, that Heaven sent provisions, but that the Devil sent cooks. So, in this case, he conceived, that having fed heartily, the aldermen went to quarrel with the cooks; but he advised them to think better of the matter. He begged them, at all events, not to be uneasy; for, if meat had been a little dear, when the price of feeding cattle was also dear, it would be considerably cheaper day after day; that there was already plenty of nice lamb at market, and in consequence of the kindness of Providence lately showered down upon the earth, the green peas were coming in, and every other article of luxury, both of meat and vegetables. As the worthy aldermen undoubtedly wished to ensure the continuance of having their napkins tucked under their chins, and as he was also desirous they should continue to make that characteristic appearance, he should oppose the motion for reviving the laws against regrators and forestallers. While they had plenty of provisions, he advised them not to go to loggerheads with the providers, but to let them fatten as well as themselves. In the instance before the House, the petitioners certainly acted under a mistake; but the errors even of the city of London were respectable; nay, their very ignorance ought not to be despised; and indeed they were ignorant only as to the manner of their being fed, as every body well knew. As he had been the humble instrument of moving the repeal of the laws against forestallers and regrators, he wished to stand up and prevent the dry bones of those gibbeted laws from being again clothed [VOL. XXVI.] Alderman Le Mesurier said, that the good humour with which the right hon. gentleman had treated the subject had disarmed his anger, otherwise he should have spoken warmly of the expression of an hon. gentleman, who said that the application was an affront to the House. He had constantly understood that any body of subjects enjoyed an undoubted right to come to that House, complain of their grievances, and ask for redress. The petitioners had done no more; but, as it did not meet with the concurrence of the House, he would not press the application at present. All he wished was for leave to have brought in a bill, and to have let it stood over to the next session, when the House would be better able to decide upon its merits. The aldermen of London, he acknowledged, were fair game; but then, it ought to be considered that they [4 F] were a very small number, indeed, compared to their fellow citizens, and the inhabitants of the metropolis. If they fed upon the good things of this life, it was their duty to take care of the millions connected with them, and to see that they had provisions as cheap as their circumstancès made it necessary. With regard to the commerce of trade in general and the commerce of provisions, the comparison did not hold at all. Any coat would keep a man warm, but he must have something to eat, or starve. There were laws against forestallers and regrators yet unrepealed, and he begged the House to recollect, that they were not passed in unpopular reigns, but in those of Edw. 4, Hen. 5, Wm. 3, and reigns of those complexions and characters. Alderman Newnham said, that with regard to the laws against regrators and forestallers, undoubtedly the repeal of them, generally considered, was a wise measure; but then there were regulations necessary of a moderate nature, which, he conceived, need only to be stated to be assented to universally. Smithfield, for instance, was the common market of the metropolis. Smithfield, consequently, ought to afford a true test of the plenty or scarcity of the season. At present, it did not, by any means, because the cattle which were sent to town by the feeders, did not come to Smithfield, but were stopped in their way, bought up at Finchley or Islington; Rumford or Stratford; Hounslow or Hammersmith; Edgware or Marybone; Croydon, Kingston, Bromley, or Dartford; and thus with held from Smithfield, an artificial scarcity created, and all the effects of it produced, when there was a real plenty. What he wished, therefore, was, that the cattle designed originally for the London markets, should be obliged to be brought to Smithfield, and there, fairly sold. By such regulation, all parties would stand upon an equal footing; the farmer, the feeder, the drover, the salesman, the butcher, and the public. Sir Watkin Lewes said, that the object of the motion was, undoubtedly, of great importance. The committee appointed by the corporation of London had taken great pains to investigate the cause of the high price of provisions, and had corresponded with the different corporations throughout the kingdom, who had concurred in their wishes that some remedy might be adopted to reduce the high price of provisions. The public were too much interested, and their expectations that the abuses stated would have been remedied, too much raised, to prevent their feeling themselves hurt at the disappointment, and particularly at manner in which the subject had been treated. He had heard no argument which carried any weight in his mind against the motion. Ribaldry had been substituted in its room, unworthy the dignity of that House, or the importance of the subject. He should certainly give his support to the motion for bringing in a bill, that it might be submitted to the observations of those competent to give an opinion on the subject. The motion for referring the petition was negatived. Debate on Mr. Grey's Motion for an Inquiry into the Abuses of the Post-office.] May 15. Mr. Grey rose to make his promised motion. He began by disavowing any personal motive for his conduct, and declaring that the higher consideration of what was the duty of a member of parliament impelled him to come forward, and state the necessity of an inquiry into certain abuses in the Post-office, which proved the malversation of those who were entrusted with the management of that office. He proceeded to mention, as the first and leading fact on which he grounded his application-an application which he would not have made, had there appeared any other means likely to be resorted to for the cure of the abuses in question, than a parliamentary inquiry➡ that, in the year 1775, a person of the name of Barham, who had been agent of the Dover packet, and was grown old and infirm, applied to the Postmaster-general for leave to retire, and to be superannuated. Leave was given, and Mr. Walcot, formerly of the Post-office in Ireland, was appointed, upon condition of paying Mr. Barham an annuity. This was thus far a fair transaction; but at the same time it was conditioned that 350l, a year more out of the salary should be paid annually to Mr. Lees of the Post-office in Dublin, to be by him paid to a person no otherwise known than by the letters A. B. This, Mr. Grey said, he charged as a corrupt purchasing of a place, and though he fully acquitted lord Carteret of any motive of personal interest, or advantage to himself, from the transaction, yet he charged it as an instance of impure con most extraordinary. Mr. Grey reasoned upon these circumstances, and said, that it was clear there could be no motive for dismissing the earl, but that noble lord's having preferred doing his duty to every other consideration. He conceived therefore that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had acted in a manner deserving of censure; and with a view to establish that fact, as well as the other charges, against lord Carteret, which he had stated in the course of his speech, he concluded with moving, "That a committee be appointed to inquire into certain abuses in the Post duct in lord Carteret, as that noble lord | Mr. Pitt rose, he said, not to detain the House long, and certainly not to oppose the motion. A motion made for an inquiry into abuses stated to exist in a flagrant degree, and which an hon. gentleman declared himself impelled, by his duty as a member of parliament, and not by any private or personal views, to make, was such a one as he should at all times feel the strongest inclination to comply with, and from which nothing but evident and palpable impropriety could induce him to withhold his consent. But he expected, if the motion were to pass, that the inquiry intended to be made would be proceeded upon before the end of the session. The hon. gentleman had made heavy charges against a noble lord of high character and unsullied honour, and had thought proper also to extend his accusation to him, and it would be but a bad mode of consulting either his own or the noble lord's reputation, to endeavour to shrink from an inquiry into the merits of the accusation. The part which he had taken in the transaction relative to Mr. Lees, was one which he was always ready to submit to the judgment of the House. A memorial had been sent from the General Post-office, signed by the two noble lords who then presided there, the earl of Tankerville and lord Carteret, stating that Mr. Lees would probably suffer an injury in his employment, to a very considerable amount, in consequence of the separation of the two establishments of the Post-office-that of England and Ireland-from each other. It also stated the annuity paid by Mr. Lees to Mr. Walcot, and by Mr. Walcot to Mr. Barham; and he, together with other lords of the treasury, as well in consideration of the actual loss sustained by Mr. Lees, as from the circumstance of that gentleman having done the business for a considerable time for a small salary, in the prospect of an increase in his profits in future, did, upon inquiry into the amount of the loss, sign an order for an addition of 400l. to his salary. As to the charge made by the hon. gentleman, that he was inclined to wink at abuses in the Postoffice, or any other public establishment, it was a charge wholly unwarranted by fact. So far was he from any backwardness for the reform in abuses in that office, that he had suggested a measure for the general reform of all those very abuses relative to shipping and other matters which the hon. gentleman had mentioned, and that measure formed a part of the Office Reform Bill. Mr. Fox declared, that it was somewhat too hard on his hon. friend to endeavour to tie him down to a completion of his report before the end of the session. It was not possible for any gentleman to answer what the sort of evidence would be that the committee might find it necessary to have before them. Possibly they might be obliged to send to Ireland for Mr. Lees, and that would unavoidably delay the proceedings for some days. All his hon. friend could undertake was, to proceed as far as he could, with such evidence as should be found to be within his reach; and it ought in candour to be remembered, that when his hon. friend gave notice of his motion, he had said, that if it was thought too late in the session, he would willingly defer it till the next. With regard to the right hon. gentleman's having signed his name to the treasury warrant, in common with other lords of the treasury for 400l. to Mr. Lees, as far as that went on the ground therein stated, he had not the smallest scruple to say it was a perfectly fair transaction; but, then, had the right hon. gentleman the 350. paid to Mr. Lees for A. B. in his view at the time? because if he had, he had not merely signed an annuity of 4007. simply to Mr. Lees, but an annuity of 400. in addition to 350. paid to Mr. Lees before, making in the whole 750. Mr. Fox reasoned upon this as a matter that warranted supposition, and, till it was explained, it was not unfair to presume it to be so. With respect to the sudden dismission of any of the King's servants, his notions upon that matter were rather high, as he conceived it to be the undoubted prerogative of the Crown to choose its own servants; but if it were made out upon the proposed inquiry, that the earl of Tankerville had endeavoured to correct the abuses stated by his hon. friend, and had suggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer plans of correction of those abuses, and especially of that of suffering 350l. of the public money to be annually paid away in the name of A. B. to a person whom no body knew; that circumstance, coupled with the sudden dismission of the noble earl, made it undoubtedly a matter deserving of censure in the ininister. But he saw a reason, Mr. Fox said, which made it little or no wonder that the noble earl was suddenly dismissed, and which convinced him that his hon. friend's partiality to his noble relation made him rather unreasonable; for could his hon. friend imagine that any merit in his noble relation could stand a moment in the way of the present chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Jenkinson), and first lord of the new Board of Trade, against whose interest the dismission of a whole administration did not weigh a feather? Mr. Pitt said, that the only grounds on which the 4007. Treasury warrant to Mr. Lees had been signed, were, in order to make up to Mr. Lees an annuity adequate to what he lost by the separation of the Post-offices of Great Britain and Ireland. With regard to the hon. gentleman's not completing his report, he must continue to think, that no member was warranted in bringing forward matters of charge against a noble lord, and against himself, unless he was prepared to render an immediate inquiry effectual. Viscount Maitland reprehended the choice of such a period of the session, to bring forward an attack of that sort on the character of a noble lord, who had served the public highly to his own credit for many years. The subject of the proposed inquiry had been hawked about the streets of London for many months past, and had been in almost every body's mouth. Why, then, was it not brought forward earlier in the session, when it might have been fully gone through, and the blame, if any have alighted upon the proper object. The present motion, upon the face of it, seemed to arise rather from resentment than justice. It looked as if it were founded in pique, and with a view to keep the noble lord, now at the head of the Post-office, in a disagreeable predicament, by calling his character in question, and not allowing him an immediate opportunity of clearing it from all imputation. cellor of the Exchequer was the material part of the inquiry, and he did not at all doubt but, when it was considered what use ingenuity might make of reports to disseminate stories and tales to his prejudice, that the opportunity of doing so was the principal ground which induced gentlemen to be so anxious for the inquiry. As to the Bill of Reform to which he had referred, and the argument that nothing had been done in consequence relative to the Post-office, gentlemen would be so good as to recollect that the Bill pointed also to other reforms of more material importance, and that the Commissioners of Accounts, were themselves a considerable time before they made a report upon that very important object of their attention, the balances in accountants' hands; but as soon as they did so, measures were immediately taken which effectually answered their end, and produced very large sums for the public. With regard to the noble earl having endeavoured to correct abuses, and received commendation from him for so doing, it was undoubtedly true; but then as to any great advantage or much dispatch in the noble earl's plan of reform, he could not say that he entertained very sanguine expectations. Mr. Sheridan defended Mr. Grey's conduct from the construction which had been put upon it. He said, that it was possible some other influence had induced the noble viscount to stand up so warm an advocate for the present Postmastergeneral, than his own conviction, that his hon. friend meant any thing at all unfair. in bringing forward his motion at that advanced period of the session. The fact was this:-The earl of Tankerville had himself intended, as was well known, to take some step in the House of Lords relative to the subject, nor was it till very lately that he had been informed that the only effectual and proper proceeding would be, to move in that House for a committee of inquiry. His hon. friend, therefore, was not at all to blame for not having brought forward the subject sooner, since it had not been in his hands till within a few days. The most material part of the proposed inquiry was the charge against the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That matter was certainly a serious ground of inquiry, because no man in that House dealt more in professions; but he wished to try the right hon. gentleman by his conduct, and not by his professions, or the preambles of the Bills which he had proposed and got passed. The right hon. gentleman had then turned to one of those Bills, his Office Reform Bill, passed more than two years ago, and yet that House had heard nothing of the effects of that Bill as to the abuses in the Post-office, to which the right hon. gentleman had said that it alluded. He had at the time when the Bill was in agitation, stood up to oppose it, and pronounced that it would prove ineffectual, and that the same end might be better obtained by other and very different means. The motion of his hon. friend, and the ground of it, sufficiently proved that assertion. Viscount Maitland observed, that with regard to the influence to which his hon. friend had alluded, it was rather a delicate point for him to treat of; but thus much he would say, that the person glanced at by his hon. friend was not only ready to meet an inquiry into any late part of his conduct, but would not shrink from an investigation of the whole of a life of fifty years officially employed in the service of the public. Mr. Pitt said, he verily believed that the hon. gentleman who rose last but one, had spoken with his usual sincerity, when he said, that the charge against the Chan Mr. Sheridan answered, that the right hon. gentleman dealt more in professions than in acts. The right hon. gentleman had said that the commissioners, under the Office Reform Bill, had not come to the Post-office. He asked, then, to what else had they turned their attention? He reminded the right hon. gentleman of his eagerness to triumph over a noble lord (North) by his famous speech on whipcord, the kitchens of Downing-street house, and a variety of other trifling topics, which, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, he had stated as instances of the noble lord's negligence and corruption. He asked how the right hon. gentleman could reconcile it to himself to have built the palace at the corner of the Admiralty, after having maintained such an argument? It was, if not a proof of corruption, at least a proof of profusion. Again, if he could not be charged with a direct corrupt use of the influence of the Crown, he had made as prudent and as interested an use of it as any minister, in the distribution of places and emoluments, and particularly in bestowing titles and honours. Upon the whole, Mr. Sheridan contended, that Mr. Pitt had always promised and professed purity, but had acted |