Captain Bowyer rose to confirm the assertion that the Post office packets were concerned in smuggling. He stated several distinct facts to prove this, and detailed the circumstances of one case, in which the vessel, instead of being sold, and half the money paid to the captain and crew of the ship that seized her, was valued, and a third only paid to the captain and crew, and the packet given back to the captain who had been guilty of smuggling. He said that some of the Post-office packets had false floors and ceilings to the cabin, and he had even heard of their having hollow beams, the better to conceal contraband articles.

no new observations. With regard to the permission of Mr. Molyneux to resign the agency of the Helvoetsluys packet boats to Mr. Hutchinson, that was a transaction founded in a charitable intention to relieve an unfortunate man from prison; and, if there was any criminality in the transaction, it was as much imputable to the earl of Tankerville as to lord Carteret, since the noble earl had taken as great a part in it as the noble lord; but, in his opinion, there was no criminality imputable to either.-Viscount Maitland went into the other facts stated in the report, and commented upon each with a view to show that it was either not personal to lord Carteret, or of a trivial nature. With respect to the 24 per-centage allowed to the person who managed the packet boats, that appeared to him to be the most important abuse of all, and Mr. Todd was as ready to admit that it was so, as any man living, though he had acted with so much guard over himself, as to be ready to lay open all the actions of his official life to the strictest scrutiny. The misunderstanding between lord Cateret and the earl of Tankerville did not arise, as had been said, in consequence of the former opposing the latter's endeavour to reform certain abuses, but had begun much earlier, and upon far different grounds. Viscount Maitland now read the letters from Mr. Todd upon the subject, and the answers, in which the earl declined taking the advice which Mr. Todd was so ready to give him unasked. In the earl's letters, viscount Maitland observed, that he did not find that he cooled very fast, with respect to the transaction alluded to, or appeared cautious of introducing expressions indicative of warmth. With regard to the dismission of the earl, he defended the measure, and took notice of what Mr. Grey had said of the arrangements in favour of lord Hawkesbury, declaring that that noble lord's name was an excellent ingredient in a recipe to render any thing unpopular. Upon the whole, he said that the abuses stated in the report were not of the magnitude to call for the investigation of that House, but might fairly have been left to the correction of those at the head of the office, or for the examination of the Committee acting by virtue of the authority given them by the Office Reform Bill. He added, that he should move the previous question, meaning afterwards to move that the farther consideration of the Report be put off for three months.

Mr. Baring rose, as one of the commissioners under Mr. Pitt's Office Reform Bill, and gave an account of their labours. He said, they had first gone into the old Board of Trade office, next into the Secretary of State's office, and then to the Admiralty office; from thence into the office of the Treasurer of the Navy, and that they were now in the Navy office. He declared that they were not directed by the Act to make reports to that House, but to the Lords of the Treasury; therefore the hon. gentleman need not be surprised at not having heard of any report from them. The fact was they had made three reports long ago, and the reason why they had not made another before now, was the extreme arduousness of their present object of inquiry, since they found the Navy office and Admiralty office so connected, that, in order to make a complete report, they were obliged to go back from one to the other. Mr. Baring spoke of the difficulty of their duty, asserting, that he could sooner make an entire report, like those of the commissioners of accounts, than write a single line of the report which ought to come from that committee of which he had the honour to be a member.

Mr. Pitt said, that he should not think it necessary for him to take up much of the time of the House with what he had to say upon the subject. It would indeed be unpardonable in him were he to expatiate much, after the very ample elucidation made by the noble viscount of the general question. Neither did he imagine that the House would expect that he should take much notice of what had fallen from the hon. mover, of a direct personal tendency against himself, as that, at least a great part of it, certainly was by no means connected with the subject then under

discussion; yet he could not but observe upon the singularity of the hon. gentleman's conduct, who began his political career in an early part of the session, by an opposition (a reluctant one, as he had himself said) to a particular measure of government, and who had accompanied that opposition with professions of great personal regard and respect for him, and of a desire, as far as he could do it consistently with his duty as a member of Parliament, to give his general support to administration, and had particularly disclaimed the character and imputation of being what was called a party man. Whether he had deserved those sentiments of respect with which the hon. gentleman had complimented him or not, of this he was at least convinced, that since that period he had done nothing to forfeit them; nay, the very subject which had been made use of by the hon. gentle-man, as a channel for censure and accusation against him, was a subject every circumstance of which had taken place long before, and been known to the hon. genticman, according to his own statement, even previous to his having a seat in that House. Notwithstanding those professions of a reluctance to oppose Government, of respect to administration, and of disclaiming the character of a party man, he could not but say that he thought the present a wanton attack on Government, and that it was conducted in a manner highly personal and disrespectful to him, and besides favoured very much of the utmost asperity of party.

With respect to the subject itself, it appeared to him as by no means of consequence sufficient to be made a subject of parliamentary inquiry. All that could be done in the work of reformation ought to be done by the executive government, and in such trivial instances a resort only had to Parliament, when it should appear that Government had obstinately neglected that necessary part of their duty. But he left it to the judgment of the House, whether Administration had been guilty of such neglect in the Act of Parliament, which had just been read, for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not he had proved remiss in the business. The House had seen in that act a full provision for every necessary reform, and full powers given to the commissioners for that purpose. The hon. gentleman, not being able to charge him with having omitted the Post-office in that Act, had

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complained that the commissioners had delayed to enter upon that part of their duty; but all that was necessary for him to say upon that head was, that the commissioners had not been idle; and then the question would be, whether the Postoffice was of that rank and importance, compared with the other offices which had been examined, or the abuses in it of such glaring and prominent magnitude, as ought to have entitled it to a prior attention. This he by no means thought could be alleged; for, independently of any superiority in point of importance, it had been thought advisable to begin with departments of the very highest rank, in order to remove any impression that the examination of the commissioners was a derogation from the dignity of those who presided over the several offices. idea was totally removed in the subordinate departments, by the higher ones having first submitted to it. In pursuance of this principle, the commissioners began with the Treasury, then they proceeded to the offices of the Secretaries of State, from thence to the Admiralty, and afterwards to the Navy office; and he believed that no gentleman who knew the nature of that department, would wish that its examination and reform should be delayed a single hour. It was evident, then, that with respect to the object of reform in that office, Government had done all in their power, and had already put it into such a train as the Legislature approved of, by passing a law for the purpose. The object of the motion, then, could not be to provide for a reform, for that was effectually done already; but must be for the purpose of censuring a noble lord at the head of the Post-office for supposed abuses, or more probably with the view of casting a reflection upon him for the part which he had taken in the arrangement by which the noble earl had been removed from it. With respect to the latter, he apprehended that the House seemed to feel the impropriety of entertaining such a discussion, as it certainly belonged solely to the Executive Government to dispose of the several public employments, and Parliament would be very cautious how it attempted to control or question the discretion with which that power was exercised. It certainly had been found necessary to remove one or other of the noble lords, as their differences had risen to such a height that they could not even sit in the same room with satisfaction; and

that discretion with which Government was invested had led them to determine the alternative against the noble earl of Tankerville. The necessity of removing one of those noblemen, and the vacancy which must follow from such removal, had afforded an opportunity of accommodating a noble lord (Hawkesbury) who had been alluded to, and to whom gentlemen might allude as often as they pleased, in the way in which they did, so long as he was persuaded that every favour which had been conferred upon that noble person, since he had any share in his Majesty's councils, had been fully earned by the most able and meritorious services; but the vacancy was not made for the sake of accommodating lord Hawkesbury, as it was evident that the two noble lords could not possibly continue to act together; and whether the earl of Tankerville or lord Carteret had been made removed, it would have no difference with respect to lord Hawkesbury; for, in either case, there would have been an opening for him. Beside, there certainly was nothing personal intended against the earl of Tankerville; for, at the very moment of his removal from the Post-office, there was an arrangement set on foot for the purpose of accommodating him, but his lordship would not listen to it. With respect to the charge against lord Carteret, of the annual allowance made to Mr. Treves out of the salary of Mr. Lees, it certainly was an abuse, and one which that House ought not to countenance. He was sorry to say it was an abuse to be met with in many other public departments; but that was certainly no excuse, as it was by no means a fit way of providing even for a deserving servant of the public, much less a person who had no claims upon the state; for, if the salary of an employment were too great for the duty, it ought to be reduced, and, if it were not too great, it was injustice to make it less, by charging it with a provision for a person who did not do his duty. Still, there were circumstances in which it might be allowable, as where a person became superannuated, and incapable of doing the duty of his office, it was but natural to grant him a support out of the income of his successor, and that successor might think himself sufficiently compensated for the smallness of his present profits by the prospect of a future increase, by the falling in of the pension. This was the state of the case with respect to Mr. Barham and Mr. Lees, and

with that part of it only had he any concern. Notwithstanding the indignation which the noble earl might now feel, and which it appeared that he had so very. amply communicated to the hon. gentleman, he remembered the time when the noble earl had thought much more mildly on the subject, as he could take upon him to say, from his recollection, that the noble earl had been extremely urgent with him to consent to an allowance to Mr. Lees, as a compensation for the sum paid by him to Mr. Treves. But, upon the whole, these circumstances, as well as those which related to Mr. Hutchinson and Mr. Molyneux, although improper, we not attended even with any imputed circumstance of corruption on the part of lord Carteret, nor did he imagine that any hon. gentleman wished to carry the business so far as a censure against that nobleman. On the contrary, he was fully satisfied, that he himself was the only object of hostility. For all these reasons, he should most heartily concur in voting for the previous question.

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Mr. Sheridan observed, that it was extremely natural for the right hon. gentleman, notwithstanding his concern for lord Carteret, to take notice of that part of his hon. friend's speech first, which more immediately related to himself. The right hon. gentleman had, with great apparent firmness, animadverted upon what his hon. friend had said, but the right hon. gentleman must excuse him if he took the liberty of asserting that the right hon. gentleman did feel, and severely feel the reprehension of his hon. friend. With regard to the words which the right hon. gentleman had quoted of his hon. friend's first speech in that House, the right hon. gentleman had not quoted his hon. friend correctly; for, if he had, the House would have seen that his hon. friend was by no means chargeable with inconsistency. His hon.. friend had not professed personal respect for the right hon. gentleman, but only said, that he gave him credit for the goodness of his intention in the measures which he brought forward, and, therefore, he hoped the right hon. gentleman would give him credit, when he asserted, that in opposing the Commercial Treaty with France, his motive was honest. This was a true description of what had then passed. With regard to any thing which his hon. friend had said, that might be improper, when he considered the talents and the ability that his hon. friend had

shown at his outset and ever since, though he must, undoubtedly, be called a young member, yet he would agree with the right hon. gentleman, that such a young member was as little pardonable for any error as the oldest member of the House. On the present occasion, however, he must contend that his hon. friend had not merited the reproof, which the right hon. gentleman, the veteran statesman of four years experience, the Nestor of twenty-five, had been pleased to bestow on him. Mr. Sheridan, now proceeded to the main question, and reminded the House that he had opposed the Office-Reform Bill, when originally brought in as a Bill of ostentation and parade, rather than of solid advantage and utility; and he was now convinced that it had been what he then described it to be, since it appeared from what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Baring) had said, that the commissioners had begun at the wrong end, and gone in search of abuses where no abuses could have existed. The hon. gentleman had said, that the commissioners went first into the office of the Old Board of Trade;-a curious beginning-to search what abuses had been formerly practised in an office which no longer existed! They had next gone into the Secretaries of States offices; -the offices of all others least likely to be pregnant with abuse. If any abuse was there, it was, that the deputy Secretaries of State, whose duty was arduous and important, were by no means sufficiently paid. But it was in vain to say what the commissioners had done since the hon. gentleman confessed himself unfit to be a commissioner, for he had expressly told the House, that it had cost him more trouble to write a single line of a report, than it would take him to pen an entire report of the commissioners of accounts. The Bill, Mr. Sheridan said, he had never considered as an exclusion of all future inquiry; and yet from the right hon. gentleman's argument, he seemed so to regard it; for, notwithstanding that the facts stated in the opening of the present subject by his hon. friend had all of them been established by evidence, yet the right hon. gentleman was for leaving them for the correction of the commissioners, when they should have leisure to attend to them. It appeared, indeed, that the right hon. gentleman had surrendered his understanding when he brought in the Bill, and was determined to hear only with Mr. Baring's ears, and to see with

the eyes of sir John Dick; and, therefore, he could not pay the least attention to the representations of the earl of Tankerville. He read a clause from the Bill to show, that the transactions relative to the 350l. and the 2001. as well as the affair of the agency to the Helvoetsluys packets, came directly within the meaning of the clause, declaring, that any persons guilty of such practices should be incapable of serving his Majesty in any civil capacity in future. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Pitt) appeared to plume bimself upon his political connexion with lord Hawkesbury, and, sacrificing to this, he had dismissed from office the earl of Tankerville, and retained the lord Carteret, although by the Office-fee Bill, the latter, on the present charge being proved, must have been disqualified from holding any office under government. But this was done to reward Mr. Jenkinson's public services, secret services, and services in that House. Indeed, his many eminent services could not be forgotten by the right hon. gentleman, as on a very recent occasion, he had overturned his own favourite measure, by destroying the Irish propositions. This was one of the secret services for which he had so meritoriously received a recompence.

The

Mr. Rolle said, that he did not intend to say a word in the debate, but the hon. mover had described lord Hawkesbury as having given the right hon. gentleman his situation, and added that he could dismiss him with a nod. Such language was neither decent nor respectful to the House. With regard to the right hon. gentleman's coming into office, he could speak; and as to his dismission, he hoped it would be long enough before he should have to regret so unfavourable a circumstance. right hon. gentleman had come into office on the voice of the People. He himself had carried a congratulatory address to the Throne on that event, and similar addresses had been sent up from all parts of the kingdom. As to the abuses spoken of in the Report, they appeared to him to be too insignificant to require the interference of that House. The commissioners under Mr. Pitt's Bill were the properest persons to correct them. With regard to the misunderstanding between the two noble lords lately at the head of the Post-office, as far as he understood the matter, it was a contest between them which should have the largest share of the loaves and fishes. As a proof that Mr.