Debate in the Commons on the Address upon the Treaty of Commerce with France.] Feb. 21. Mr. Blackburne said, that as the Treaty of Commerce with France had undergone a considerable degree of discussion, he would not take up the time of the House by going into a detail of its merits, but would content himself with observing, that it appeared to him, from the most serious attention which he had been able to pay to it, to be likely to be productive of the most beneficial consequences to Great Britain. The blessings of peace would thereby be rendered more permanent; a circumstance highly desirable after so long and so unfortunate a war. In the course of the discussions which had taken place, great stress had been laid upon the opinion of the manufacturers; he was therefore extremely happy to be able to assure the House from his own knowledge, that the manufacturers of the county which he had the honour to represent, not only approved of it, but were exceedingly anxious that it should be carried into execution with as little delay as possible. As a proof that these were the sentiments of at least a very large description of manufacturers, he read a lettter, which he had that day received from Manchester, and then moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, assuring his Majesty that we have taken into our most serious consideration the provisions contained in the Treaty of Navigation and Commerce, concluded between his Majesty and the Most Christian King; and that we beg leave to approach his Majesty with our sincere and grateful acknowledgments for this additional proof of his Majesty's constant attention to the welfare and happiness of his subjects: That we shall proceed with all proper expedition in taking such steps as may be necessary for giving effect to a system so well calculated to promote beneficial intercourse between Great Britain and France, and to give additional permanence to the blessings of peace: That it is our persuasion, that we cannot more effectually consult the general interests of our country and the glory of his Majesty's reign, than by concurring in a measure which tends to the extension of trade and the encouragement of industry and manufacture, the genial sources of national wealth, and the surest foundation of the prosperity and happiness of his Majesty's dominions." Captain Berkeley could not second the motion without declaring, that it gave him singular satisfaction to express his sincere approbation of one of the best, and most popular commercial treaties, this country had ever entered into. The hon. gentleman had read a letter stating, in the most unequivocal terms, the due sense which the fustian manufacturers of Lancashire entertained of the Treaty; and he had also in his hand authentic papers from the manufacturers of a county, not the most inconsiderable for its valuable woollen manufactures. The woollen manufacturers of Gloucestershire had requested him to state their entire satisfaction with the Treaty, and their earnest wishes to have it speedily carried into execution. Nor was it from the sentiments of the manufacturers of this county alone that he collected his opinion that the Treaty held out the most flattering prospect to Great Britain. The manufacturers of Rouen and Abbeville, two of the greatest woollen manufacturing towns in all France, had assembled and solemnly declared, that if the Parliament of Great Britain approved of the Treaty, and carried it into execution, their manufactures must be ruined; so little able were they to cope with Bri tish manufactures in any market. He denied that the Commercial Treaty with France contained any thing which could affect the Methuen Treaty, or alter our situation with Portugal in any degree. Now if the fact were true, that it had been said in another House of Parliament, that Portugal was at that time negociating with France for the latter to monopolize all her Brazil cotton, in that case he should contend that Portugal was guilty of an infraction of the Treaty, and that we had consequently a right to complain of a breach of faith in Portugal, instead of Portugal having any cause of complaint to allege against Great Britain. It was, he believed, customary on such occasions as the present, to pay a compliment to the minister of the day; and he would avail himself of the usage, by declaring that he held in his hand a testimonial of the grateful sense which the manufacturers of Gloucestershire entertained of the meritorious conduct of the right hon. gentleman, in having made a Treaty, in the highest degree flattering to the manufacturers of Great Britain. This compliment was the more valuable from its sincerity, since it was well known that the inhabitants of that county had been adverse to the right hon. Debate in the Commons on the Address gentleman, when he first came into office, but that they now confessed themselves converts to his spotless integrity, and were convinced that he was the heir of his great father's eminent public virtues, and had no object in view but the good of his country. Mr. Charles Grey (member for Northumberland) now remarked, that it was not without reluctance that he rose for the first time in this House, to stand forward in debate upon a measure, which, from the vast variety of interests it embraced, from the extent of knowledge it comprehended, and, above all, from the total change it must occasion both in the political and commercial systems of this country, might appear to require more serious argument and more solid information than he could be supposed to possess. Fully impressed with a sense of its magnitude and importance, he had hitherto remained silent during the different stages of discussion through which it had passed; nor should he now have presumed to trouble the House, but that a circumstance had lately come to his knowledge which appeared to him to be of the most serious moment, and which he thought it his duty to disclose to the House, as an additional caution to them to proceed with the greatest circumspection, and not to preclude themselves by a premature decision (for the Address now moved appeared to him to be absolutely decisive) from exercising at any future period their undisputed right of rejecting, if it should appear wise to them to do so, the Treaty that had been laid before them. Before he opened this circumstance, however, he should shortly advert to the arguments used by the hon. members who moved and seconded this Address. Both of these hon. gentlemen laid great stress on the general acquiescence of the people; but as the proof of that acquiescence was founded only on universal stillness throughout the nation, Mr. Grey said that he must beg leave to object to a negative argument of that sort, as he never could admit that a silence of complaint could be construed into positive approbation. Their next argument was derived from the approbation of the manufacturers whom this Treaty most immediately affected, and both produced such documents from their respective constituents as would not give him room to * The present Earl Grey, A. D. 1815. [472 doubt of the fact. However, he must object to this argument also, as he should who, though intrinsically honest and upat all times to the authority of any men, right, were, from their situation, open to the impressions of personal advantage. but, from the present allowed superiority For his own part, he could have no doubt of our manufactures to those of France, and it was this circumstance which ought we should derive a temporary advantage; to make us the more cautious in paying a nufacturers who may have their minds ditoo implicit belief in the opinions of ma verted from a consideration of the future consequences of a system which holds out to them a seducing prospect of immediate gain. But, more particularly must he object to an admission of their opinions at Navigation and Commerce with France, this moment in favour of the Treaty of by their evidence given upon oath on the when he found them directly contradicted subject of the Irish propositions. And, indeed, the principles laid down by them at that season weighed infinitely more with him than their present opinions, when he recollected that they then had sufficient time for mature deliberation, without the influence of present interest to warp their judgment or bias their understandings. But the right hon. gentlethe approbation of the English, added man who seconded the Address, had, to facturers, as a concurring argument to the dissatisfaction of the French manuprove the good effects which we might expect would follow the conclusion of this Treaty. That hon. gentleman was most fortunately situated to collect documents of both; of the first, as representative of a great manufacturing county, and of the some French connexion. He expected, last, he imagined, through the medium of however, that he at least would have rested his arguments on more substantial grounds, and, being personally interested in the prosperity of our navy, hoped to have heard from him in what manner this Treaty was likely to increase our mariBut the right hon. gentleman had been time strength, and extend our navigation. totally silent on that head; and Mr. Grey added, if he could prove to him, that, so far from increasing our marine, this Treaty was big with absolute ruin to it, he trusted that he would give up the temporary interests of manufacturers to those more solid ones, in which consist the power and glory of Great Britain. the King's authority, to the American minister, Mr. Jefferson, for this very purpose: it was to this that he alluded in the beginning of his speech, and with the leave of the House he would now read it: It had been contended, that this Treaty was to do away our ancient jealousies and antipathies, and introduce a system of amity and good-will, and to be productive of those advantages to both nations, which may be naturally expected to flow from a mutual interchange of good offices. But was this a time for laying aside jealousies, when our enemy was more than in a situation to extend that power which must ever be regarded as most dangerous to our interests? Was there any one who really believed in the fair professions and seducing promises of the Court of France? Was there any one that could suppose, that, in the advantages held out to us in this Treaty, if advantages they were, she could have any but an insidious view? Every offer of service from France, he regarded with suspicion -Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes- Dona carere dolis Danaum? Mr. Grey said, that he would not go in search of the numberless instances which might be quoted, where we had been deceived and out-negociated. He had in his hand a recent proof, drawn from the very moment when this negociation was pending, in the midst of these fair professions and cordial assurances, in which the right hon. gentleman opposite placed so much confidence, which sufficiently proved what the view of France had been in the negociation of this Treaty. A right hon. member (Mr. Flood) who spoke in the second debate upon this subject with equal eloquence and ability, warned this House against_enabling France, by the means of this Treaty, to secure to herself the trade of America. That right hon. gentleman foresaw, that, by the credit we should afford her, France would be able to supply her own want of capital, and making herself the depository of commerce between us and America, to carry it on in French bottoms, to the equal advantage and increase of her own marine and the diminution of that of Great Britain. But though that right hon. gentleman argued wisely, and foresaw what was probable, he little thought that his apprehensions were actually realized, and that this favourite, he believed he might say this principal object of the Court of France in the negociation of this Treaty, was already in part completed. On the 26th of September the Treaty was signed by Mr. Eden; on the 22nd of October a letter was written by M. de Calonne, with "Fontainbleau, 22nd October, 1786. "Sir; as it is the intention of the King to assist the commerce of the United States as much as possible, I have the honour to communicate to you some measures which have been adopted in relation to it. In a letter of the 9th of January, 1784, to the Marquis de la Fayette, I acquainted him, that instead of two free ports promised to the United States by the Treaty, the King had determined to allow them four, which has been just put in execution; and I promised him to give my attention to the customs and duties upon exports which embarrass commerce, observing to him at the same time, that this object required very great pains in the accomplishment: it is not yet completed. In another letter I informed him, that his Majesty had taken off the duties upon the exportation of brandies, and I hoped that this suppression would be useful to the American commerce; and I promised him also, that the duties of the King and the Admiralty, which were to be paid by an American vessel upon her arrival in the French ports, should be diminished, and that what remained of them should be reduced to a single duty, to be regulated according to the number of masts or the draught of water, and not after the too uncertain estimation of gauging. This reduction requires an exact knowledge of the duties which are collected in the ports; and as they consist of a great number of different sorts, the statements which I am now procuring of them are not yet finished. "You know, Sir, that the King has appointed a particular committee to examine into our commercial connexions with the United States, and that the Marquis de la Fayette has presented to them a system analogous to the ideas which are expressed in your letter to the Count de Vergennes; but you perceive how imprudent it would be to hazard, by a change of system, the produce of a branch of revenue which amounts to 28 millions, unless it were in a case of the greatest necessity. After a full discussion of every circumstance which can operate at this time in favour of the importation of the American tobaccos into France, it has been determined, not that the contract with Mr. Morris should be frustrated, but that after the expiration of it, no contract of the same kind should ever be made, and that in the mean time the farmers-general should engage to purchase annually about 15,000 hogsheads of American tobaccos, coming directly from the United States in French or American bottoms, at the same prices and upon the same terms which are stipulated in the contract made with Mr. Morris. "You will recollect, Sir, that during the time when resolutions were forming upon the subject of the applications made in favour of the whale oils, the Marq. de la Fayette had made a particular agreement with Mr. Sangrain, that he should receive remittances of that article to the value of 800,000 livres, and that I had granted him passports to discharge this first cargo from all duties whatsoever; the same Mr. Sangrain afterwards made a contract with the merchants of Boston for 400,000 livres per annum for six years, for which his Majesty promised the same advantages which are enjoyed by the Hanse towns. This subject having been lately examined in a more general point of view, the ministry to whom the committee had given an account of their plan, conformable with the Marq. de la Fayette's request and your opinion, for the entire abolition of all duties upon oils, have determined that this plan cannot be carried into effect at present by reason of engagements subsisting with other nations. They have only been able to insure the same favours and the same moderation in respect to duties for ten years to the whale oil, the spermaceti, and every thing comprehended under those denominations, coming from the United States in French or American bottoms, which the Hanse towns enjoy. "His Majesty hopes that the commercial connexions between the United States and France, will become so extensive as to induce him to continue the effect of this provisional decree; and as it has been observed in the committee that a considerable manufacturing duty was collected on the most favoured whale oil, and indeed upon the oils of this kingdom itself, his Majesty agrees to abolish this manufacturing duty with respect to the whale oils and spermaceti coming directly from the United States on board American or French vessels, so that these oils and spermaceti will only have to pay, in consideration of all duties whatsoever, during ten years, a duty of 7 livres 10 sols, and the 10 sols per livre; this last addition of 10 sols per livre only to continue until the year 1790. "It has been determined to make particular inquiries into the consumption of Carolina rice in France, and to take measures to encourage the importation of it. In consequence of representations which have been made to him of the considerable duties laid upon the pot-ash and pearl-ash of America, as well as upon the skins and furs of the castor, and upon raw hides, his Majesty has suppressed all the duties laid upon these articles of the growth of the United States and coming from thence on board of French or American vessels. He will also attend to giving due encouragement to all the branches of the fur trade. His Majesty has also consented to discharge from all duties the masts, yards, timbers of all kinds, the red cedar, the green oak-in a word, all woods made use of in ship-building coming from the United States in French or American bottoms. The committee having also represented that there was a duty of 5 per cent. upon the purchase of foreign-built vessels, and that this duty was injurious to the sale of American vessels, his Majesty has been pleased to take the matter into his consideration, and to exempt from all duties the purchase of vessels which shall be proved to have been built in the United States. His Majesty has granted the abolition of the very heavy duties laid upon trees, shrubs, and seeds of trees, in favour of all the cargoes of them from the United States and shipped in French or American vessels. "As it has been represented that the state of Virginia is procuring a supply of arms to be made in France for their militia, regulations have been made to take away the prohibitions, which until this time have prevented the exportation of arms and gunpowder, as well as the duties required in cases where particular permissions are granted, and to the United States liberty, when they shall so desire, of importing arms, fusils, and gunpowder from France, provided it be in French or American vessels, and that these articles shall be subject to a very moderate duty, intended only to calculate the exportations. Finally, his Majesty has shown the same favourable disposition to the request made to the committee to suppress the considerable duties which exist, at present, upon books and papers of every kind. His Majesty takes off all duties upon articles of this kind sent to the United States and shipped on board French or American vessels. "It is with pleasure, Sir, that I communicate to you these dispositions of his Majesty, which serve as a new testimonial to you of the desire which he has to unite in the most intimate manner the commerce of the two nations, and of the favourable attention which he will always pay to proposals which shall be made to him in the name of the United States of America. I have the honour to be, &c. inconsistent with the political interests of this kingdom? No; for he would take upon him to assert, that no connexion which could be devised would be so eligi ble for this kingdom, or so consistent with the views of true political wisdom. Was it, then, that America was averse to any treaty with Great Britain ? Mr. Grey hoped that he should not be hereafter quoted as having said that he had a Commercial Treaty with America in his pocket, when he declared that, so far from that being the case, he had the best reasons (Signed) DE CALONNE." for believing that America was both will"Your nation, Sir, will doubtless being and eager to enter into negociation pleased to find the facilities which the with us on fair and equitable terms. King has granted for the export of Bour- little nearer the conduct of France on this But it might be proper to examine a deaux, Guienne, and Touraine wines, and occasion. Mr. Eden was sent over to the suppression of different duties laid Paris to negociate a Treaty of Navigation upon them by different decrees of council, and Commerce. Pending that negocia with which the Marquis de la Fayette will tion, a proclamation was issued from hence make you acquainted." excluding American ships from British ports. Did France take advantage of this step which tended to separate and alienate still farther from us the minds of the Americans to court them at that time into her ports? No; that perhaps would have opened too soon the eyes of this nation, and perhaps impeded the conclusion of this Treaty to which her most ardent wishes had ever been directed. She waited, therefore, till ministers were so far pledged, that they had it no longer in their power to recede, till they were completely hampered in this negociation; she then offered these fair ones, meaning thereby to secure to herself a great commercial mine, and raise her navy on the ruin of that of Great Britain. Here, then, was a glorious instance of the pacific disposition of the Court of France; she negociates with us a treaty, a "tempting bait," as it had been called, by which she cuts us off from the rest of Europe, and precludes the possibility of our fortifying ourselves by any new alliances, while she obtains an absolute ratification and acknowledgment of the Family Compact, secures herself at the head of a formidable confederacy, avowedly hostile to our interest, and lays the foundation of a future trade in an exclusive trade with America, which under such advantages must inevitably become superior to ours. He trusted gentlemen would see this in the light he did, and that we should no longer be so blind to every thing which we had read, to every thing which we had seen, to every thing that we had felt of French perfidy; Here, Mr. Grey observed, was a long string of concessions on the part of France, without the stipulation of a single article of reciprocity from America in return. America was not only put on the footing of the most favoured European nations, but greater advantages than any European nation enjoys were given to her by taking off the internal duties upon her oils. She was allowed to import arms, ammunition, and every warlike store, of which she might stand in need; in short, she received every thing that the kindest friend could give, or the most favoured nation could expect. For what did France stipulate in return? for nothing. But was this the effect of mere principles of benevolence in France? Did France really expect no equivalent? Yes, she expected an equivalent in a monopoly of that trade which we once enjoyed, and which supplied us with two kinds of our commercial marine. She expected an equivalent in the augmentation of her own navy, and the ruin of that of Great Britain. But it might be answered, that these concessions on the part of France did not interfere with our treaties, and that we could not prevent them. True, we could not; but we could prevent their ill effects in negociating ourselves with America, a treaty that would give us at least a share in the advantages to be derived from a commercial connexion with that country. And here it might be proper to ask ministers what it was that prevented us from forming such a connexion? Was it that it would be |