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period from 1772 to 1782; whence he made it appear, that it had lately decreased to less than half the sum to which it formerly amounted. Our export of woollens, in particular, it appeared from the papers on the table, did not amount to more than between 4 and 500,000l. a year; whereas in 1701 and 1702, when the import of British woollens laboured under partial prohibition and heavy duties, it appeared that Portugal took woollens of us to more than half the amount that she now took under the Methuen Treaty. So much, therefore, for the real state of our woollen-cloth exportation to Portugal.

But noble lords had complained that the Treaty with France ought not to have been concluded before the negociation with Portugal. In regard to that, it should be remembered, that, by the 18th article of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, signed by a noble duke (of Manchester) Great Britain was bound to endeavour to form arrangements of commerce with France in two years, and afterwards another year had been added. Was Government, therefore, to have neglected a compliance with the stipulation of the 18th article of the Definitive Treaty, because Portugal would not adjust the complaints of her breach of the Methuen Treaty? If ministers had tried again and again, and found that Portugal, in spite of all they could do or say, would not listen to reason, nor consent to comply with the Methuen Treaty, as to its obvious spirit and meaning, would it have been right for Government to have let pass the opportunity of concluding a treaty with France, which promised to prove highly advantageous to the British manufacturer, and to the commerce of the country? He adverted to the instances in which Portugal had failed in complying with the meaning of the Methuen Treaty. The case of Ireland, he said, was notorious. The woollens of Ireland had been admitted into Portugal in like manner as the British woollens had been admitted, till the period when Ireland was declared independent, and then it was that Portugal pretended that Ireland was not comprehended within the meaning of the Methuen Treaty. If he knew any thing of public law, no point was more clear than that when one sovereign prince made a commercial treaty with another, all the subjects, at least all the subjects in Europe of that sovereign prince, were comprehended in the treaty, and entitled to participate in its beneficial [VOL. XXVI.]

consequences. The distinction, therefore, with regard to Ireland, was an idle one, taken up upon weak, and persisted in upon unjustifiable grounds. Nor was that by any means the only cause of complaint, with regard to the Court of Portugal's not observing the Methuen Treaty. A book of rates had been published, imposing new and heavy duties on British woollens, and other goods imported into Portugal, and the levying of those duties was entrusted in the hands of a single Custom-house officer, and not in the hands of a minister; a circumstance attended with infinite inconvenience to our trade, and, in some instances, operating like a prohibition, as the dread of having the wanton caprice of the Custom-house officer in Portugal, above alluded to, exercised to their prejudice, deterred many British manufacturers from sending their goods to the Portuguese market.-Another distinction, which Portugal had also taken with res gard to her construction of the Methuen Treaty, was peculiarly adverse to the trade of this country. The distinction was, that all newly-invented manufactures, since the year 1703, were not included in the Methuen Treaty, and were liable to pay whatever duties the Court of Portugal chose to levy upon them; this their lordships would see must necessarily bear hard upon all our cotton manufactory, almost every article of which was of recent invention, although it was already brought to such a state of perfection as to astonish the world. He declared, he was not only ready to do justice to Portugal, but willing to do her a favour; but he appealed to the sense of the House, whether it did not become Government to bring the Court of Portugal to an explanation, and oblige her to perform her observance of the Methuen Treaty, as faithfully as we did ours. The Commercial Treaty with France, he contended, was of itself a favour to Portugal, since, if she thought proper to adhere to the Methuen Treaty, she would derive a very considerable advantage from the article in regard to reducing the duty on her wines one-third lower than the duties on the wines of France, being carried into execution. He combated lord Stormont's argument relative to the 24th and 25th articles of the Family Compact, and contended that the 24th only stipulated that the French and Spaniards, in point of navigation and commerce, should reciprocally be entitled to all the privileges of subjects in the two countries, and conse[2 M]

quently that it had in no sort affected us. With regard to the idea of France entering into a commercial treaty with Portugal, he considered it as too chimerical to be seriously dreaded. He asked, if any man in his senses imagined that France would take 12,000 tons of the wines of Portugal for her own consumption? A circumstance so unlikely to happen, surely, was not one that ought to alarm this country. He said, that he should oppose the motion, because, instead of weakening the hands of Government, and embarrassing the negociation pending with Portugal, he held it to be the duty of that House, as well as of the other, to strengthen the hands of the executive, and, by uniting on the present occasion, to hold out to Portugal a firm determination in the British Parliament, to support Administration in their just demand upon the Court of Lisbon, to comply with the spirit and meaning of the Methuen Treaty.

Lord Porchester appealed to the recollection of their lordships, whether he had talked of France being likely to take 12,000 tons of Portugal wine, or suggested any thing half so absurd as such a proposition. What he had remarked was, that by our having concluded a Treaty of commerce with France, before we had brought our negociation with Portugal to an end, we had put it in the power of Portugal to sell the open British market to France for commercial advantages, which France might, for such a bargain, be glad to give to Portugal. What! France, a country which made the best wines in Europe, take 12,000 tons of the worst wines any European country produced! The proposition was too ridiculous to be stated. His complaint was, that the Treaty with France, upon the face of it, made it the interest of France, by every species of influence and intrigue, to prevent Portugal from acceding to our demands upon her, and, in case of a failure of the negociation, France might have the open British market without any compensation being given to us for that advantage. But were there no other commercial advantages France could give to Portugal for such a benefit but taking wine? France might take all her Brazil cotton at her own price, and then our cotton manufactory was undone at once.

Lord Hawkesbury insisted upon it, that no other country but Great Britain could take 12,000 tons of Portugal wine; and that it was fair to state that, as one

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glaring instance of the improbability of the Court of Lisbon breaking with Great Britain. With regard to the Brazil cotton, this country was the best market for cotton in Europe, and as long as she continued to be so, there was no doubt but that the Brazil cotton would find its way to it, whether it came directly from Portugal or through France. As to the cotton manufactory of this country being likely to be ruined for want of a supply, he had no apprehension of that kind; for the growing of cotton was now the universal practice: in a very short time, therefore, in all probability, we should have a sufficient supply even from our own islands.

Viscount Stormont contended, that ac cording to lord Hawkesbury's doctrine, the 18th article of the Definitive Treaty bound us, within two years, to make any treaty of commerce with France whatsoever, that France thought proper, let it be ever so disadvantageous to this country; whereas the true meaning of the article was, that the high contracting Powers should endeavour to treat about arrangements of commerce within the period named, and, therefore, if the en. deavour had even been made without success, the good faith of both the high contracting Powers would have been kept. He illustrated this by mentioning, that by the terms of a treaty many years since concluded between Great Britain and France, both powers stipulated to send commissaries to Antwerp, to settle some particular and specific arrangements, which were not settled to this hour.

The Duke of Norfolk thought it his duty to offer a few remarks upon what had fallen in the course of the debate. He said that the whole of lord Hawkesbury's argument appeared to him calcu lated to depreciate the value of our trade with Portugal, and to prepare for a total abandonment of it. The noble lord had said, if ministers have tried to obtain a redress of grievances at the hands of the court of Lisbon in vain, if they have done so and so. That sort of language, he must remark, could not be regarded. The House knew of no grievances that existed, they had not heard of any infringement of the Methuen Treaty on the part of Portugal, but the old ground of grievance relative to Ireland, which, as far as could be understood, was given up by Portugal, though no such important communication had been made to the parliament of Ireland. Would ministers

but would content himself, as a peer of parliament, with declaring his disapprobation of the motion, and appealing to the candour of the House, whether, pending a negociation, the agreeing to such a motion would not hold out to the world an ill-timed want of confidence in Administration, and of consequence throw difficulties in the way of bringing the Treaty with Portugal to a happy and an early issue.

The Earl of Carlisle declared, that he was glad to find that the death-like silence of ministers was at length broken. The noble marquis, however, had confined himself to the single point of the expediency of making the motion at that time, without adducing one argument to show, why it would not be wise to conclude the business with the Court of Lisbon, before they carried the Treaty with France into effect. He animadverted on lord Hawkesbury's speech, and said, an unfortunate "we" had caught his ear, which induced him to imagine, that, although the noble lord had taken pains in the middle of his speech to tell them " he was no minister," yet he conceived himself to be in equal power, just as some men fancied when they had one foot in the stirrup that they were seated on the saddle.

assert that grievances had existed, and that they had exerted themselves to obtain redress, without being able to obtain any? Would the noble lord, instead of saying, "if government had tried in vain to obtain satisfaction," take upon himself to assert, that they had so tried in vain, his word would be taken, and the motion need not be pressed; but as the case stood, the House had no information before them of one fact or the other. The noble marquis (of Buckingham) had laid the amount of the trade of Ireland out of the balance of the trade between Portugal and Great Britain, and had supposed him to differ in opinion from him, upon observing that he assumed a look of disapprobation at the moment. The fact was, he subscribed fully to the fairness of the argument of the noble marquis; but he could not help expressing some disgust by his countenance, when he heard a distinction taken between Great Britain and Ireland, in a moment when the trade of the empire was the subject of debate. He wished the interest of the two kingdoms to be always considered as inseparable. The duke expressed some surprise at the silence of ministers upon a topic so immediately relative to their own conduct. He was aware that the noble lord, who had risen that day to support the Treaty and justify ministers, had the chief burthen of government upon his shoulders, and was a noble lord of great weight and authority; but as he had himself told the House he was no minister, consequently he had no responsibility. The duke concluded with declaring it to be his confirmed opinion, that so far from the present motion tending to weaken the hands of Government, or embarrass the pending negociation with Portugal, it would give Government strength, and put them on advantage ground in their negociation with the Court of Lisbon.

The Marquis of Carmarthen said, that although he was undoubtedly responsible, when formally called upon, for any part of his conduct as a minister, yet he did not hold himself obliged to rise at the call of any individual lord, to answer questions or assign reasons for the conduct of Government, unless his own judgment convinced him that some answer ought to be given. He would not, at that late hour, go into a discussion of topics which had been so fully discussed, and, in his mind, so unanswerably argued by the noble lord near him (lord Hawkesbury),

The question being put by the Lord Chancellor, with the omission of the word perpetual,' the House divided: Contents, 24; Proxies, 2-26; Non-Contents, 72; Proxies, 9-81.

Debate in the Lords on the Treaty of Commerce with France.] March 1. Viscount Stormont rose and observed, that he meant to call their lordships attention to a single point of form; and that was their mode of proceeding in a business of as much importance as ever called for the consideration of that House. The Commons had passed certain Resolutions founded on the Commercial Treaty with France, and had sent them to that House with an Address drawn up in such particular and precise terms as to pledge Parliament with respect to their future conduct in the subsequent stages of the business. Such a mode of proceeding was not warranted by any precedent, as far as he had been able to discover. Whenever both Houses joined in an address to the Throne, upon a subject, the discussion of which was not concluded in either House, it had always been customary to draw that address generally, and so as not in any sort to preclude

the freedom of future debate.

petitioning this House upon any bill depending in Parliament, though such bill be founded upon and conformable to resolutions to which this House has previously agreed."

itself by any address so as to deprive itself of the full exercise of its legislative capacity, or preclude itself from a right of voting, as to its wisdom should seem meet, upon any future bill or bills, which might be brought in, as a consequence of the Resolutions then about to be submitted to their lordships' consideration. As this was a proposition which no noble lord, he believed, had the smallest inclination to controvert, he saw no reason for their voting truism, and therefore would move the previous question.

Viscount Stormont pressed the House to adopt his motion, in order that posterity might learn, that their lordships had exerted that caution in guarding against the establishment of a precedent, which, upon the face of it, was equally new and dangerous to the constitution.

He knew no precedent for such a proceeding as the present. He had indeed, out of doors, heard of the noble proceeding adopted with regard to the Irish propositions; but, that their lordships well knew had been The Marquis of Buckingham said, that extremely different. In that case, the he concurred most fully with the noble two Parliaments of Great Britain and Ire-viscount that the House could not bind land, being the negociators, the resolutions and the evidence on which they proceeded, had been sent up from the House of Commons, and their lordships were left at full liberty to discuss the resolutions, to examine witnesses, and to proceed with all necessary caution; and at length the two Houses had joined in an Address to the Crown, stating to what length they had proceeded, promising to pass such bills as to them should seem necessary, and desiring the Crown, as the medium between the two Parliaments, to cause the resolutions to be laid before the Parliament of Ireland. How widely different had been the proceeding in the present case! Why it had been different, he was at a loss to imagine, since there was a precedent on the Journals, which seemed to him the precise one which ought to have been followed. He meant the precedent of the proceeding upon the Treaty of Utrecht. He stated in what mode the House had then conducted themselves, and drew a character of lord Bolingbroke, the minister in 1713. At that time, an administration upheld by as powerful a faction as ever governed this country, were in office. The minister early in life gave proof of uncommon ability, and commanding eloquence. By the powers of his oratory, he could gloss over the dark side of a picture, and cover its deformity so as to deceive most men, and mislead many. He was of a temper vehement and overbearing, and his passion often inclined him to carry all before him; but still he had, in that instance, shown so much respect for the constitution, that with all his personal authority, with all the influence of his ability, he ventured not to adopt a proceeding like the present. Viscount Stormont contended, that the House could not bind itself by any address, so as to abandon the free exercise of its legislative capacity; and as it was necessary to prevent the proceeding proposed to be adopted from misleading posterity, he moved, "That no address to the Throne, and no resolution of this House, can bind this House in its legislative capacity, or bar the subject's right of

The Lord Chancellor put the question, "That the order of the day be now read," which operating as a previous question, was carried. The order of the day was accordingly read; and the House having resolved itself into a committee of the whole House, lord Scarsdale in the chair, to which the Resolutions and Address of the Commons on the Treaty of Commerce and Navigation with France were referred,

The Marquis of Buckingham rose, and began with bespeaking the patience of the House, while he proceeded to a detail which, he said, must necessarily run into a considerable length. He proceeded to lay it down as an incontrovertible fact, that it had been the ancient and uninterrupted practice of Great Britain to be connected by a commercial treaty with France, unless when that practice had been broken in upon by intervening wars. He took up the history of our treaties with France in the middle of the last century, and traced it to the Treaty of Utrecht, marking all the peculiar circumstances which had occasionally occurred. He next recited the history of the Treaty of Utrecht, and the event that followed with respect to the rejection of the 8th and 9th articles of that Treaty. He stated, that sir Thomas Hanmer had been the member who moved for the rejection of

would be worn in the sleeves of the lower order of the people, and the labourer in France would purchase an English knife to cut his dinner with. The marquis next touched on the Treaty with Portugal; and contended, that if it should unfortunately be broken off, we should be under no distress in regard to the article of cotton, respecting which so much had been said. Our consumption was 16 millions of pounds annually, and above half that quantity was supplied already from our own colonies; and so much had lately been planted, that in a very short time we should be able to supply ourselves completely, which would now have been the case, had not the island of Tortola been torn from us at the late peace; not that he meant to blame that peace, for his opinion of it was well known: he should ever contend that it had been the salvation of the country; but he mentioned Tortola merely as the island that had been unfortunately the sacrifice, and some sacrifice their lordships well knew it was necessary to make. The marquis now moved the first Resolution, viz. "That it appears to be expedient, that all articles of the growth, produce, or manufacture of the European dominions of the French King, which are not specified in the sixth article of the Treaty of Navigation and Commerce between his Britannic Majesty and the Most Christian King, signed at Versailles the 26th of September 1786, shall be imported in this kingdom on payment of duties as low as any which shall be payable on the importation of the like articles from any other European nation."

those articles; but, so conscious was he of the general good tendency of the whole of the Treaty of Utrecht, those two articles excepted, that he also moved for an Address to the Queen, thanking her for having made the Treaty, and desiring that means might be immediately adopted for carrying all of it, but the two rejected articles, into full effect.* Commissioners had been appointed for that purpose by the two Courts; papers had been exchanged by them accordingly; and the duke of Bedford, when he concluded the Treaty of Paris in 1763, had proceeded upon the ground of those events, and formed his treaty accordingly. He mentioned the preliminary articles of peace of 1783, the definitive treaty of the same year, and the nature of the declaration signed by the duke of Manchester. He contended, that the Government were bound, in some degree, to negociate a treaty of commerce with France, and he asserted that a more beneficial treaty than the present could not have been made. He entered into a detail of the tariff, and spoke of the obvious advantages that must result from our having a new market consisting of 24 millions of customers open to us, considering the evident superiority of our manufactures. In some respects, undoubtedly, France would have the advantage, because their lordships must perceive it would have been impossible to have made a treaty, in consequence of which some advantages must not be given to that contracting party, at whose hands we had received so many; in the glass manufactory, he believed, in respect to the large plate glass, France would suc- The Earl of Scarborough spoke against cessfully rival us; but then, in our cotton the Treaty, and declared that its boasted manufactory, in our pottery, and our advantages rather inclined him to doubt hardware, we should have the most deci- of the sincerity of the Court of France. sive superiority. He appealed to the Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes' was common sense of the House whether the motto he should always apply to gifts France, importing into England her pro-from such a quarter. French manners, duce, all of them luxuries, and we, exporting to France our manufactures, most of them necessaries, we must not have the advantage in a considerable degree? Families in high life, persons of fortune, and in the superior stations, would consume the imports from France; on the contrary, our manufactures would equally supply the necessities of all descriptions in France, from the prince to the peasant. While our more elegant articles would adorn the persons of the great, our buttons

See Vol. vi. p. 1223.

French commerce, and French policy, upon the experience of past perfidy, he should ever hold in detestation and abhorrence.

The Bishop of Landaff (Dr. Watson) said, he had yesterday expatiated a little beyond the immediate subject of the then debate; he had done it with design, and his design was, that he might on that day-one of the most important that the nation had ever seen-take up less of that time which their lordships could employ so much more to their satisfaction in listening to others than to him. With the same view he

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