Mr. Dempster moved, that certain Pe The Speaker expressed some doubt, whether the petitions could be thus heard, consistently with the forms of the House, and wished that a precedent might be adduced, by which the House would stand justified in giving their assent to the proceeding. would be all that was necessary; and he did not even doubt, but that one lottery-titions from the civil and military servants office would be so friendly towards another, of the East India Company, and others, as even to lend tickets to persons who the British inhabitants of Fort William in wished to make insurance at that reposi- Bengal, be referred to the said committee; tory with which it maintained so friendly a and also that they be at liberty to be heard communication. There was, in fact, in by their counsel, in support of the said the clause, no provision against this extra-petitions. vagant spirit of play; and if it were not suppressed, tickets would be transferred with the same facility as a dice-box. The circumstance struck terror every where, and led even those who were not too much inclined to superstition, to form strange conjectures relative to its origin. Reports of a curious nature had obtained on this subject. In the course of discharging his duty he had come to the knowledge of this circumstance. As he had been coming down from the bench yesterday in Guildhall, where it was his office to do justice, two persons, of grave appearance and decent habit and deportment, had come up and addressed him on the subject of the Lottery Bill now pending in Par-right to be heard against the passing any liament. They stated, that it had originated in the manoeuvres of certain holders of tickets, who, finding a stagnation in the market, had desired the measure, and prevailed so far as to have it introduced into Parliament. He asked on what grounds they founded their opinion; they stated the following, viz. That the tickets had remained for a considerable time at the same price; but that since the matter had been agitated in Parliament, they had risen nearly 30s. The Lord Chancellor said, he did not mean to contend for the clause in its present form; but he was of opinion that it was proper and necessary, if it was qualified so as to prevent improper gambling or wagering. With that view he proposed an amendment to the following purport: "That every ticket insured shall be deposited in some place, to be appointed by the Commissioners of the lottery for that purpose, which ticket, with its insurance, shall be assignable." The Committee divided on the Amendment: Contents 33; Not-Contents 7. The Clause was then agreed to; and on the following day, the Bill was read a third time and passed. Debate in the Commons on a Motion for hearing Counsel in support of certain Petitions from Fort William in Bengal.] Feb. 20. The House having resolved to go on the 27th into a Committee on the East India Judicature Acts, Mr. Dempster begged leave to adduce as a precedent, the hearing of counsel in favour of the shopkeepers against the Shop-tax. There were gentlemen lately arrived from Bengal to be examined, he believed, touching the merits of the Petition; but even if there were no precedents, he contended that the present Petition ought to be heard. Britons had a law which might infringe on their natural privileges. The petitioners, however, could not avail themselves of that right by reason of their distance; their right now to be heard could not be disputed on any grounds supported by justice. He then quoted as a precedent the hearing the Manchester merchants by counsel, against some acts relating to the American trade, and the London merchants being permitted to be heard by themselves (though not by counsel) against the Bank. The Speaker answered, that in his opinion, precedents of this nature were not applicable to the present petitions, unless the hon. gentleman would say that evidence was to be produced, then the precedents would apply; for evidence was produced in support of those petitions. He wished the House to weigh the matter well previous to their establishing a precedent. Sir James Erskine contended, that every person enjoyed an indubitable right to plead against any act which might menace the diminution of his privileges; and if that right was established, could it, consistently with justice, be denied to those whose remoteness prevented an earlier appeal? If no instance could be found on the Journals in favour of the present petition, that circumstance need not prove an exception to hearing the petitioners by counsel; they could not be heard by themselves; they therefore prayed to be heard by their 1 counsel, which was the proper agency through which their complaints could reach the House, Mr. Burke declared, that all Englishmen were fully privileged to pray against the : passing of any act which might affect their rights; the House would grant permission; its proceedings allowed that objections should be stated against any act prior to its being made a law; it would not > be common justice, then, to deprive the petitioners the privilege of being heard by z counsel against a bill which was passed into a law previous to their knowledge of such law being intended, and against which they had no opportunity to demur, they 1. being in a remote part of the globe. If :they were denied being heard against the Bill, on account of their not objecting to it previous to its being made a law, it would be saying to them, Our precedents admit you to object, but nature debars you. He was as much for a strict observance of the precedents of the House as any gentleman could be, as long as they were supported by reason; but technical <rules should be done away whenever they were contrary to justice. If the present was to be considered as a new case, old precedents should not be brought against it. Trial by jury, and other valuable privileges, ought not to be done away without a hearing. No man should be proceeded against without permitting him to speak in his own vindication. There was no country, no government in the world, however despotic, but admitted the petitions of individuals; even the Grand Seignior, when going to mosque, received petitions from the meanest of his subjects; and he should entertain no high opinion of his piety, if such petitions were refused. The Speaker observed, that it was not matter of right for any petitions to be heard by counsel; it was a discretionary power in the House to admit that indul gence; if it was a matter of right, it would not be common justice to prevent the petitioners that benefit. Sir James Erskine contended, that there could be no danger in admitting the present as a precedent; if it was discretionary, none could gain the indulgence but those whom the House judged deserving. The Speaker wished that every case, and every precedent most analogous to the present, might be brought forward to enable gentlemen to decide on the propriety of establishing this as a precedent. He begged pardon of the House; he did not mean to give his opinion on the merits of the petition, he only meant to keep the House to its rules, and warn them of the forming a precedent. Mr. Drake complimented the Speaker for his interference. He thought it would not be prudent, in so thin a House, to form a precedent; he wished that the present dispute might be revolved in a full House. If the precedent was entered into now, it would hardly be looked upon by many members as a precedent. Mr. Dundas was of opinion, that there were many reasons for refusing to comply with the prayer of the petition. Many of the objections, he observed, which were there stated, were entirely done away by the Act of 1785. He had no objection to see a proper spirit in men who were speaking of their grievances; but he disliked the language of the present petition, which he said was such as should not be directed to the House of Commons, from men who spoke with arms in their hands. Those gentlemen, however, who had signed the petition, had they known the amendments which had taken place, he was convinced that they would have retracted their demands; and as to those who had gone out to India since the passing of the Act, they had accepted of the clauses as a security, and not an oppression to those who meant to act fairly. had no objection, if it was still insisted on, to discuss the principle of those acts; it was to be supposed, that if any individual could be looked on as peculiarly interested in the propriety of those measures, he must look on himself to be that person, and so fully was he convinced of their propriety, that he would readily expatiate on that theme for a day, for two days, or for a week, if so long it pleased the hon. gentlemen opposite him, to continue their objections to the tenour of those acts. Yet he Mr. Burke said, he had not the smallest doubt but the right hon. gentleman would find a peculiar degree of pleasure in defending the justice of these measures; it was a theme which was confessedly dictated by self-love, and was a kind of justice which all are fond to pay but when the right hon. gentleman talked of his being particularly pledged, it included no .. more than this modest assertion-that the measure must be just, because he was the minister of India. But with respect to the present objections to the measure-if the language of the petition was displeasing to the right hon. gentleman as coming from men in arms, that might possibly have been a good reason for reiecting the petition; but when it was once received, that objection was of course given up, and it now mattered not whether they originally came, in the language of Milton, "beseeching, or besieging," they were now entitled to a hearing. He was not at all surprised to hear that gentlemen going out to India, had approved of these acts. Those who had favours to ask, were easily persuaded-and those, who perhaps could not go out but through the interest of that right hon. gentleman, would readily yield their conviction to his arguments; eloquent as he was by nature, there was then a superior eloquence in his situation -a persuasion in his official rank, which few adventurers so situated could with stand. The House, however, was not now to deliberate on the opinions of gentlemen going to India, but on the complaints of those who were already in that country, and whose supplications were poured out to them for hearing and redress. Mr. Dundas denied that the opinions of any gentlemen on these acts had been extorted or perverted by his situation, as he had no power to send any person in any office to India. Mr. Burke replied, that though the right hon. gentleman might not be possessed of any direct power to that end, yet all who know his influence with the Court of Directors must own that indirectly he might effect a great deal; or, if this was denied, he was certainly possessed of a power nearly equivalent that of instantly recalling any person who met his displeasure. The motion was agreed to. Debate in the Commons on the Bill to prevent frivolous and vexatious Suits in the Ecclesiastical Courts.] Feb. 23. Mr. Bastard rose and remarked, that as his motion last session, for leave to bring in a Bill to reform the Ecclesiastical Courts, had not proved so far successful as to occasion the introduction of an act for the full accomplishment of this salutary purpose, he should again beg leave to fix the attention of the House upon a subject extremely important in its nature. As the House had been already pleased to honour his former motion with their unanimous concurrence, he might without offence infer, that they were thoroughly convinced of the necessity of the measure. Mr. Bastard now stated a variety of grievances which | had occurred in cases of defamation, and more especially in those of fornication, in the Ecclesiastical Courts. Of the lower classes of people many had been thrown into prison by those arbitrary and remorseless Ecclesiastical Courts, for what they chose to represent as a contempt of their authority. Some were compelled to do penance for acts of fornication committed long previous to their marriage. An accusation had been advanced against a woman, because her first child born in wedlock was brought forth before the expiration of nine months, whereby the woman became branded with infamy, although she had been a lawful wife for several years. In one case, where a man was sued for committing fornication with his wife before marriage, it appeared, that seven years after her death he was cited to stand as a prisoner at their bar, though he had lived with her for nine years, and was father of seven children. A poor woman who was pregnant, and very near childbirth, was cited to this court: being at some distance and in such a situation, she could not appear in time to the citation; the consequence was, she was excommunicated, and thus deprived of all those temporal advantages which being within the pale of the church affords. But this was not all, her soul was sentenced to eternal misery. Such examples were disgraceful in their pretences, and terrible in their execution. Was it not necessary, therefore, to devise some method of destroying this minotaur of the sex-this tribunal of oppression on the poor, who had no power of appeal or protection from its severity of infliction? The Ecclesiastical Courts were rapacious to an extreme. If a poor person was tried in the inferior courts and convicted, then he could only have recourse by appeal to the court of arches, which was so very expensive that he could not bear it, and consequently became obliged to lie under all the infamy to which, from the sentence passed on him, he was necessarily subjected. The case of unfortunate women was also most deplorable. They were subjected to penances which destroyed every principle of shame, and eventually fitted them for being received into a bawdy-house. Mr. Bastard read some extracts from a speech made, he observed, by one of the patriarchs of the church (a right reverend prelate in the upper House of Parliament) in opposition to the principles of the measure which had been proposed on this subject. Having commented upon the false positions which it contained, and premised, that if the civil courts of judicature did not perpetually throw open ample means of redress and punishment for defamation, means more constitutional, and of course more eligible than those offered by this ecclesiastical inquisition, he might perhaps remain silent. He reprobated the sentence of excommunication, and said, that it was contrary to the gentle spirit of Christianity, and a remnant of that superstition which, fortunately, no longer prevailed in this country. He then moved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prevent frivolous and vexatious suits in Ecclesiastical Courts. Mr. Holdsworth seconded the motion. He remarked that in cases of antinuptial fornication their procedure had been singularly vexatious; and that a gentleman sat near him, who had suggested to him an example, in which a person had been teized with a process on account of antinuptial fornication fifteen years after he was married. He added, that the various instances of oppression in the conduct of this arbitrary, this infernal court, ought to operate effectually with the Legislature as motives for its abolition.. Sir William Lemon observed, that the hon. mover merited high encomiums for the zeal which he had inanifested against such vexatious procedures; and added, that in consequence of such virtuous activity and ardour, he had obtained the thanks of the grand jury of the county which he represented, who had also expressed their earnest wish that he would again propose a measure which had at a preceding juncture failed of success. Sir William Dolben thanked the hon. gentleman for making his motion. He wished, however, to remind him, that there was nothing more singularly vexatious in the Ecclesiastical Courts than in any of the other courts in which justice was dispensed-that the poor, if injured by the decision of the judges in Westminsterhall, were as little able to apply to the House of Peers for redress as to the Court of Arches, in instances of defamation. The original institution of the Ecclesiastical Courts was wise and good: the abuses which had crept in, could not be too soon rectified; but even their present existence did not warrant the application of the epithet infernal' to this violently reprobated tribunal. The patriarchs had been perhaps contemptuously mentioned; [VOL. XXVI.] but he felt a pleasure in declaring, that he believed there never was a period in which the different sees in this kingdom were filled by men of greater learning, or who recommended religion more powerfully by their own example. Mr. Burke said, that if there were any abuses in the Ecclesiastical Courts, the fault was not to be attributed to the bishops; for every one knew that they rarely presided there, and generally did their business by deputation. Mr. Bastard declared, that he meant no reflection on either the bishops or the clergy, of whose worth he entertained as high an idea as the hon. baronet; he had opened the subject solely with the most anxious hope of proving the humble instrument of exterminating an evil highly oppressive to the lower class of the community, and absurdly arbitrary in itself. The motion was then agreed to. Debate in the Commons on the Plan for the Consolidation of the Duties of Custom and Excise.] Feb. 26. The order of the day being read for the House to resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to take into consideration so much of his Majesty's Speech to both Houses, on the 23d of January last, as relates to simplifying the public accounts in the various branches of the revenue; Mr. Pitt moved, "That the resolutions which, upon this day se'nnight, were reported from the committee of the whole House, to whom it was referred to consider so much of his Majesty's Speech to both Houses upon the 23d of January last, as relates to the Treaty of Navigation and Commerce between his Majesty and the Most Christian King, and were then agreed to by the House Also that the thirteenth Report of the commissioners appointed to examine, take, and state the public accounts of the kingdom, which was presented to the House upon the 21st day of March, 1785, be referred to the said committee:And that it be an instruction to the said committee, that they do consider of the several acts of parliament for establishing annuities on lives, payable at the receipt of his Majesty's exchequer." The Speaker then left the chair, and Mr. Steele took his seat at the table. Mr. Pitt rising again, observed, that it would be unnecessary for him to dwell upon the great importance of the subject, and the advantages which must inevitably result from it; they were in themselves so [2 S] obvious, that it was more difficult to ac- necessarily liable to many changes and count for its having been delayed so long, alterations. The consequence of such a than to prove the propriety of now adopt- mode of taxation when it was laid on by ing it. The increasing commerce of the bulk, was, that in goods of one general country on one hand, and the accumulated description the duty was always the same, burthens on the other; the various ad- whether upon the more perfect or the ditions which it had been found necessary coarser manufacture, by which means it to make to the rational income, by aug. either operated as a prohibition to the menting almost every subsisting duty, and latter, or was not at all felt by the former. the concomitant progression of the re- There was, besides, another mode by sources from whence that income was which duties were imposed; which was, supplied, had so widely exceeded the ex- by a proportion to the value on goods not pectations of our ancestors and all the rated, and this was the real and actual grounds of calculation, on which they value of the goods, as sworn to by the imfounded their system of finance, that the porter. This principle of taxation, being principles which they adopted, as suited once adopted, was pursued in every fresh to the narrow and confined scale of their subsidy which had been granted for the public exigency and resources, were no payment of the interest of the several longer applicable to the present state loans that were raised from time to time. either of the trade or the revenue of the In some instances it had operated by imcountry. The consequences of thus re- posing additional duties, calculated by a taining the old principles under the altered per-centage on the duty at present paid; circumstances of the country, were, in in others it had laid a farther duty on a several points of view, highly detrimental different denomination of the commodity, to the interests of the nation. In the first either with respect to its value, its bulk, and most material instance, they were pro- its weight, or its number; and proceeding ductive of great inconvenience to indi- in this manner from period to period, it viduals, as well to the merchants as to had at length, by the numerous additions the officers of the customs, from the diffi- so made, and the unbounded increase of culty they occasioned in calculating and the articles of commerce, produced that ascertaining the amount of the several mass of confusion, which was now so unisums to be paid by the former; and they versally complained of, as productive of were also, in some degree attended with such an infinity of inconvenience and an actual loss to the revenue. Mr. Pitt delay to those whom it was the interett of went very much at length into the origin the country to have as free from all unneand progress of our revenue, as it at pre-cessary embarrassments as possible-the sent stands, and particularly that branch mercantile part of the nation. which arises from the customs, stating, that the first institution of the present subsisting duties of custom, was made by statute the 12th of Charles 2, under the names of tonnage and poundage-the first of those was an imposition on wines, laid on by the quantities imported; and the other was a proportional duty calculated by value on all other articles. This last duty of poundage, calculated on the value of the several articles, was of a nature liable to great inaccuracy and irregularity-the value of the goods was ascertained by a book of rates, and computed on the quantities of the goods either with respect to gage, to weight, or to taille-it was not a real value that was fixed upon them, so that the duty should bear a certain proportion to that real value, but an arbitrary value, perhaps according to their actual standard at the time of imposing the duty, yet which must, from the natural fluctuations of trade and manufactures, be Adverting next to the nature and extent of those inconveniences which hence arose to the merchants, Mr. Pitt represented to the committee, that almost all of the additional subsidies had been appropriated to some specific fund, for the payment of certain specific annuities, and that there must therefore be a separate calculation made at the Custom-house for each of the different subsidies; and that from the great complexity of the whole system, scarcely any one merchant could be acquainted, by any calculations of his own, with the exact amount of what he was to pay. It was, at first view, perhaps to be wondered at, that consequences seriously bad, had not as yet resulted from this evil; but there were two causes by which that circumstance might be accounted for. The first was, that some persons employed in the Custom-house, whose whole time being dedicated to the business, were more conversant with it |