Mr. Turner.

feel the impolicy of fuch a measure, and therefore he should endeavour to avert the mifchief, by moving that the order of the day be now read.

Mr. Turner rofe to fecond the right honourable gentleman's motion, "that the order of the day be now read." Mr. Turner faid the county in which he lived, and the constituents whom he reprefented, (and perhaps they were as refpectable conftituents as fent any one gentleman to that House) had told him, previous to his election, that they would never place any confidence in him, if he gave the leaft countenance to the farther profecntion of the American war. He therefore feconded the right honourable gentleman's motion for reading the order of the day, and going into a committee of fupply, in order to fee whether the war was to be continued in America or not, to meet minifters in the teeth on that point, and know whether they dared to spend more of the public money on fo frivolous and fruitless a project? He wifhed to know if they meant to bamboozle the nation any farther, and the fooner it was known the better. He declared he had been confined to his bed fix weeks before he left his own houfe; he had got up from that bed, and travelled to London, 250 miles, at the rate of forty miles a day, to do his duty as a member of that Houfe. In his journey he caught cold, and had a perfon to fit up with him for feveral nights together; but expecting that the committee of fupply would come on, he had at all hazards come down to the House, and was determined to bring it to the proof, whether that House would fuffer minifters to go on in the fame mad and extravagant manner that they had hitherto purfued! He reminded the Speaker, that ten or a dozen years ago he had told the House that the war with America was an unconstitutional war, and he said, he had told the House truth: but the last was a hired House of Commons, and did juft as the hirers pleased. The people who paid the taxes, he was fure, would not agree to go on with the war, and those were not the electors of the gentlemen who formed the majority of that House. He declared he had uniformly voted one way, and often in a small minority. He liked a fmall minority beft, a fmall minority had virtue, and wifhed well to the country; a large minority was a bad thing, a fmall one a good thing. After a few more words, fpoken with a blunt integrity, Mr. Turner repeated it, that he feconded the motion that the order of the day be now read.

Mr.

chin.

Mr. Minchin, in reply to the fecretary at war, faid, the Mr. Minanfwer he had just received was fo hackneyed, that he never heard it given to a motion like that he had taken the liberty of making, without being afhamed of the person from whose mouth it came. The idea of danger to the country and fervice to its foes, from acceding to his propofition, was ridiculous and abfurd to an extreme. Was Sir Henry Clinton's army, in its conftitution, different from that of every other army? Were there no friends to the enemy, no fpies in it? Would the right honourable gentleman take upon him to' affert, that General Washington, Monfieur Rochambeau, and Monfieur Ternay, were not perfectly mafters of the information he wifhed the House to receive? On the contrary, would not the right honourable gentleman, if he chofe to confefs the real motive of his objection, fay, that he was not afraid of giving information to France and America, but that he was afraid of giving information to that House? Mr. Minchin faid farther, that he had no objection to leave out that part of the motion which called for the account of the fituation of General Clinton's army, and content himfelf barely with moving, that an account of the state of General Clinton's army be laid before the House.

The Secretary at War faid, if it depended upon him, he Mr. Jenshould say his objections were fo ftrong, that he was not wil- kinfon. ling to take even half the motion only. It fo happened, however, that his motion for the order of the day to be read had been feconded and put; it refted therefore with the Houfe to difpofe of it.

Town end.

The Right Hon. T. Townshend rofe upon this, and appealed Rt. Hon. in fairness to the right honourable gentleman, whether, when his honourable friend wifhed to make an amendment to his motion, by leaving out the moft offenfive part, he ought to infift upon reading the order of the day upon it. As the motion ftood at first, Mr. Townshend faid, he thought it was too extenfive, and that there was ground for reafonable objection to it. He had told his honourable friend fo when he thewed it to him; at the fame time that he mentioned this he begged to have it understood that he did not fee the leaft objection to it on the feore that had been fuggefted, viz. the fear of its giving information to our enemies. As his honourable friend had faid, there could be no danger of that kind in the cafe, fince a full compliance with the motion VOL. XVIII. X

would

Mr. Mincbin.

Ld. Geo.
Germain.

would only give that House fome information respecting matters, of which undoubtedly General Washington, Monfieur Rochambeau, and Monfieur Ternay, had complete knowledge fix months ago. The affertion of his honourable friend was true, that Minifters were only afraid of giving information to that Houfe. Scarce a day paffed without af fording a proof of this; their prefent filence was a more than ordinary inftance of their haughty treatment of Parliament. What did it amount to, but a direct demand for a large fum out of the public pocket, without giving that public the finalleft fatisfaction how their money was to be employed. Mr. Townthend faid, he was aware he might be answered, "Look at the estimates upon the table!" but thofe estimates did not cure his objection; in those estimates no account was given of the provincial corps, fome of which he was informed were mere corps of officers, a fyftem of putting the nation to expence by means which did not conduce to its intereft, that had been pretty much adopted of late! Why did not Minifters account for the provincial troops? Why did they not fhew, that when they obtained the public money, they applied it to the public fervice ftrictly, and not bring eftimates to Parliament which held out no real lights, no information that could be depended on? Mr. Townshend concluded with recommending it to his honourable friend to amend the motion, and hoping that the Houfe would then receive it.

Mr. Minchin faid, he had no objection to leave out the part which had been juft fpoken to, but that he should certainly infift on his motion; and that he thought it highly indecent in the right honourable gentleman, and those who fat near him, to hurry on a bufinefs of fuch confiderable importance as the confideration of the army eftimates, on a day when fo many of them had rifen, and expreffed their great doubt of being able to get a Houfe of 100 members together, to ballot for a committee.

The Houfe fhewing an inclination, that the motion for reading the order of the day be withdrawn, in order to put the amendment, the Speaker ftated the queftion, and the Houfe having agreed to the amendment, the amended motion was next put, when

Lord George Germain rofe and moved the order of the day; his Lordship, at the fame time, in anfwer to Mr. Town

fhend's questions, read what he called, a fhort return of the provincial corps, from which it appeared, that the whole number of provincial effectives in the British service were eight thousand and ninety one, and that to two thousand eight hundred and forty one rank and file, there were but one hundred and three officers. His Lordship said, that the forming them into battalions was a business transacted wholly by the Commander in Chief in America: that in that point Sir Henry Clinton acted at his discretion; but that he had ever made it a rule to incorporate one corps with another in proportion as each grew thin, and to manage the matter fo as was likely to put the public to the least expence.

General Burgoyne begged to know if 8000, or thereabouts, Gen. Buth was the number of the effective provincials, what was their goyne. whole eftablishment?

Lord George Germain faid, he did not know that there was Lord George any regular establishment, at least he had no regular account Gamain. of it, and the reafon he fuppofed was, because the number in fervice depended upon events. Perhaps there might be in his office fome papers, ftating what number of provincials the commander in chief might wish to have on an establishment; but he had rifen before, merely to answer what the honourable gentleman had faid, relative to there being an unusual proportion of officers to rank and file in the provincial corps; this he could however inform the Houfe, that the public paid only for effective men, and that as soon as they enlifted, they were put into the provincial regiments, not into our regular army, and returns were from time to time fent over by Sir Henry Clinton.

General Burgoyne not appearing fatisfied with this answer,

Sir George Howard rofe, and faid, he had that day feen an Sir Geo. officer just returned from America, with whom he had a good Howard; deal of converfation relative to the provincial troops, and the officer had told him, that it was Sir Henry Clinton's with

to form them into battalions of 530 each.

The order of the day was read, and the Houfe then refolved itself into a committee of fupply, Mr. Ord in the chair.

The Secretary at War began with ftating the amount of the The Sacre number of men, and expence of the army, which had been targ at Wat. agreed to last year, for the fervice of the year 1780, under the feveral diftinct heads of troops for guards and garrisons, (including the home ftaff) pay of the fame, army employed in plantation

X 2

plantation fervice, militia, their cloathing, foreign troops, and their pay; after going through thefe, the Secretary at War faid, that he fhould propofe to the committee a confiderable reduction, and a small augmentation, fo that upon the whole, the expence would be lefs to the public than it had been laft year. The reduction he meant was this, to reduce fuch regiments to fifty-fix as were nominally feventy-fix, but in which there were not more than fifty-fix men; to reduce other regiments to feventy-fix which had now no more effec tive men in them, and to let those only stand at one hundred, in which there now were more than feventy-fix: by this means he proved, that upon the whole, there would be a reduction of 10,000 men, and a faving of 103,5211. but with the augmentation that he fhould propofe, which would confift only of two battalions, the reduction would amount to about 8900 men. He propofed that 39,000 and odd men, be voted for guards and garrifons; 63,000 and odd, for plantation fervice; militia 43,000 and odd; and foreign troops, employed by virtue of treaties between his Majefty and the German princes, the fame as last year; only, at fomewhat an encreased expence, in confequence of a claim having been made this year for the charge of a corps of Heffian chaffeurs, formerly employed, but not before paid for. He took notice of the Saratoga business, and produced the last return of the army captured there; by which it appeared, that there now remained about 760 effectives who were prifoners, and that with the fick, thofe abfent on furlough, &c. &c. there might be in all about 1700. He faid, he had taken no notice of this army in the estimates, because, at prefent, he thought it better not. Every poffible endeavour had been used by treaty to procure their enlargement, but in vain; he was convinced, therefore, that Congrefs never would give them up under the convention of Saratoga. He alfo ftated, that another faving of expence would arife from the employment of two majorgenerals, in the lieu of two lieutenant generals, and from the faving of a year's pay, and went very much at large into a detail of the various caufes which governed each alteration, ftating that the chief reason for his wifhing to have the regular troops reduced, was the great difficulty of recruiting the old regiments, in proportion to the great cafe with which the new levies were raifed; and this he accounted for by an act now in force, which obliged him to keep up the militia to the great number of 43,000, and, by alluding to other mat

ters