different class of men-a class of men always respectable, always liberal-that the Dissenters of England should be found taking a similar course, was to him matter of equal surprise and regret. No man entertained a higher respect for the Protestant Dissenters of this country than he did, and here he wished to vindicate that body, amounting to, he believed, more than 6,000,000, from any thing like a general charge. The petitions to which he alluded came from a small, very small part, of the Dissenters of the United Kingdom; but however small the part, it was still by far too large. (Hear, hear!) If any one class of his Majesty's subjects ought to be less forward than another in opposing the claims of the Roman Catholics, it was the class called Protestant Dissenters. He trusted that as that body always sought calm and rational discussion-as they had always the word toleration on their lips, they would extend to him and to those who thought with him, a small portion of that tolerance which they themselves found it necessary to claim, and which was extended to them at a former period. (Hear, hear!) He trusted that they would, at least, agree to enter into that cool and dispassionate inquiry which, in his opinion, would convince them they were in the wrong. Did they (the Dissenters) forget that they were members of that House? But it was not so; there were no Dissenters there. (So reported.) Did they forget that every public office which they held was by connivance? Did they forget that they were continually liable to be proceeded against, and were only protected from such proceeding by an annual Indemnity Bill? (Hear, hear!) All offices were open to Protestant Dissenters in this way; but they were equally open to the Roman Catholic, and he was prevented only by a conscientious feeling from availing himself of them. Why then should the Dissenter turn round to the Roman Catholic, and say, True it is that I hold office by connivance true it is, that I am only protected from punishment by the annual Indemnity Bill, yet I am determined that you shall not have extended to you either equal emolument or equal protection? He remembered that in the reign of a king of this country, in the reign of King James the Second, the Quakers of that period presented an address to his Majesty, in which they said, and said justly, "We hear that thou dost not agree in the church of this land any more than ourselves; we expect, therefore, that thou wilt hold out that toleration to us, of which thou thyself standest so mach in weed." Such was the language of the

Quakers of that day; and were he a Roman Catholic, he should feel inclined to say to the Dissenters, "Friends, Dis. seaters, you have presented several petitious to Parliament against our claims, through the medium, of those who differ from you upon almost every other point; you have selected as your organs the Right Honourable the Secretary for the Home Department, and the Honourable Baronet who represents the county of Somerset; but, friends, Dissenters, if their religion be one in which neither you any more than I can agree, then I pray you to grant us a little tolerance while we seek that which is our right, and at the same time advance your claim to that which it is your proper business to seek." (Hear, hear!) Again, there had been petitions presented from the Scotch Dissenters against the Catholic Claims; upon this he should take leave to say a word or two, It was true that a Scotch Dissenter was entitled to sit in that House, but there were some good things which the Scotch Dissenters, zealous and patriotic as they were, would not wish to lose. How, for instance, would they like to have the doors to all great offices closed against them? How would they like that no Dissenter should be Lord Chancellor-that no Dissenter should be Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench, (offices which, with many others of rank and emolument, had frequently been filled by Scotch Dissenters,) yet such was the fact; for, by an existing law-a savage one he admitted it to be-persous holding these offices were obliged to receive the sacrament annually, according to the ri tual of the Church of England-a form which Dissenters of that country abhorred; yet Scotch Dissenters did hold these offices, because they were protected by an annual Indemnity Bill. No man respected Dissenters more than he did; he had uniformly found them the advocates of civil liberty and the promoters of education and enlightenment, except, perhaps, where a temporary delusion prevailed, and he hoped they would now be found advocates equally zealous in the cause of religious liberty. Had he not highly respected that great community, he would not have taken up so much of the time of the House in animadverting on the conduct of a small number of their body, and he hoped they would take what had fallen from him on that occasion as a kindly-intended admonition.

On the question that the petition be brought up,

Mr. Secretary PEEL observed, that the temperate manner in which the Hon, and

Learned Gentleman had alluded to him, did not call for a single observation on his part; but he felt it necessary to state that he had, on a former occasion, presented a petition from 10,000 Dissenters of Great and Little Bolton against the Catholic claims. And for himself, he could not see why Dissenters should be prevented from petitioning the Legislature any more than any other class of his Majesty's subjects. It was true, that the Indemnity Act protected the Dissenters in holding some offices, but there were many which they could hold without it; why, then, should they be debarred from praying against a measure, the effect of which would be to endanger the established religion of the country? The Dissenters always approached that House in respectful terms, and surely there could be no inconsistency in their wishing not to entrust power into the hands of those of its abuse by whom our history furnished such ample proofs. It had been said, that all tests ought to be repealed, and if this Bill had that for its object, then he felt sure that he might count upon the votes of many honourable members, who, as Englishmen, and members of the Church of England, could never consent to such a step, however favourable to the claims of the Roman Catholics. With respect to the Test Act, the Bill now pending did not touch it; so that, even if the Bill passed, it would operate equally upon Catholic aud Dissenter.

Mr. BROUGHAM, in order to prevent any misapprehension, was anxious to explain, that the opinion thrown out by him, as to the removal of tests, was entirely his own, and had nothing whatever to do with the framers or supporters of the Bill. That Bill would not go one step beyond the objects specified in it, so that any member supporting it would not be pledged to a single point further. "Oh, but," said the Right Honourable Secretary, "the Bill does not touch the Test Act." Certainly not, and the Right Honourable Gentleman, in saying so, was arguing with him. For had not the Roman Catholic a right to complain when he found the Dissenter turn upon him aud say, "True, we take office, and are protected by the Indemnity Act, but we are determined that no measure shall pass which will place you in a similar situation?"

Mr. W. SMITH was glad that this conversation had arisen, as it would tend to remove a mistake originating in the House, and thence spread through the country, that the Dissenters labour under no disabilities, disqualification or reproach. At the proper time he should be able to prove satisfactorily, that they

labour under all three, and that they ought to be relieved from the unjust burthen.

Mr. ABERCROMBIE contended that no petitioners had ever come before the House with a worse grace, or with less consistency, than those Dissenters who petitioned against the claims of the Catholics. The Dissenters generally, were an enlightened and liberal body; but he could not view with any feelings of respect the conduct of those who now obtruded themselves on the notice of the House for such a purpose. They were fanning the flame against the Roman Catholics, and yet at the same moment they had a Bill before the House for relieving themselves from disabilities; that which they would not allow others they eagerly claimed for themselves. (Hear!) Looking at the public press, he found that the papers which most favoured the object of the Dissenters opposed the Catholic Bill, on the ground that it was exclusive, and did not embrace the Dis. senters. When the Dissenters found, therefore, that this argument was of no avail, and that they would not be benefited by an alteration of the law, they turned round and opposed any concession. He had never yet given any vote on the subject of the Test Act, but if he were governed by his feelings and not by his reason, he should certainly support that disabling statute as a punishment to those who were now so anxious to resist concession to their Roman Catholic brethren. However, upon principle he was opposed to the Test Act, and would vote for its repeal, that the better class of Dissenters might not suffer for the

worse.

The petition was then read, and the question put that it lie upon the table.

Mr. BROUGHAM. I have to return my thanks to my Honourable Friend who spoke last, for the light he has thrown upon this subject, and for what he has said regarding the views and conduct of that body of Dissenters which has been so forward in petitioning against conces:sion to the Roman Catholics. No doubs that very prudent class thinks that if it shews itself ready to aid the Church at a moment when the Church is in such need, when it cannot raise even a feeble ery of "No Popery!" the Church, in return, will help the poor lame Dissenters over the stile, after the many yelps for assistance. Give me leave to say, that I know the Church better (hear, hear, hear!)-I mean the High Church, not the great and, I believe, liberal body of the Church. The High Church may hold out a delusive hope, in order to induce these Dissenters to volunteer their petitions, but it will never make the slightest

return for the favour. Let the Dissenters hereafter claim the repeal of the Test Act, and they will find these amiable and conciliatory gentlemen of the High Church assume a very different port and tone. (Hear, hear, hear!) The Dissenters may say, indeed, "We supported you in 1825-we did what we could for you when you were in the utmost despair, in the very depths of blank despair'-when even the Solicitor-General was hopeless (hear!)-when the Honourable Member for Somerset (Sir T. Lethbridge) was in the lowest despondency at what he termed the apathy of his native land.' (Laughter.) Then we, the Dissenters, stepped forward to your relief and assistance, with a few drops of consolation, a few crumbs of comfort." All this will be true; but what will the High Church party say in reply?" What should we help you for? You petitioned indeed, but it was according to your conscientious belief (hear, hear, hear!) - because you were really alarmed. You wish. ed to help yourselves, not to help us, because you wanted to enjoy a monopoly of toleration. You are covered by the annual Indemnity Act, and you wanted to keep out the Papists-you had got into a snug birth yourselves, and you were anxious to keep it to yourselves. (Hear!) It was very consistent in us to resist the progress of Popery, but it was very inconsistent and very ridiculous in you at the time when you yourselves were asking relief. We pity and despise you for it. We hate the Catholics indeed, but we hate the Dissenters ten thousand times

more; so get along about your business -we will have nothing to say to you." Such, I warn these Dissenters, will be the result; they will experience no slight degree of the odium theologicum, the intensity of which is always in an inverse ratio to the distance. (Hear!) There is no position in the principia better established than this: the Christian Protestant, for instance, no doubt dislikes the Mahometan; but let the Mahometan become Catholic, and dislike is immedidiately converted into absolute hatred; let the Catholic again become a Protestant Dissenter, and there is no limit to the abhorrence of the High Churchman; he hates him in the purest bitterness of spirit. (Hear! and laughter.) The more minute the difference, the more unbounded and unconquerable the rancour. Do we not all know into what furious animosity one little letter threw the whole Romish Church; the dispute was a mere iota, and yet what an unquenchable flame did it create! The question merely was, whether a particular word should be written dμssσiov or duos. In fact, the more insignificant the matter

in dispute, the more virulent the malignity. (Hear, hear!) The nearer men are to the Church of England in their dostrine, the further from the hearts of the members of that Church; the alarm they feel is in exact proportion to the prox imity of religious opinion. I hope that my honourable friend, the member for Norwich, (Mr. W. Smith,) will communi cate to the Dissenters this most important truth-if they indulge any hopes that the High Church party will favour them by the repeal of the Test Act, nothing can be more futile and fallacious than such expectations. I should vote for that repeal whenever the question is brought forward, if the Dissenters (I mean, of course, such as now petition) were fifty times worse than they are: I should do it on principle-in justice to their claims, and not in gratitude for their conduct. (Hear, hear!)

APRIL 19.

Mr. PEEL having presented a number of petitions from Dissenting Congregations against the Catholic Bill,

Mr. W. SMITH said he would take that opportunity to observe, that he did not object to the exercise of the right of petition on the part of any of those individuals who had thought proper to address the House on this occasion, whether Dissenters or others, whatever their opinions might be. Neither did he object to any thing they had done, in order to shew their feelings, with reference to the Catholic Question. It certainly did, however, happen yesterday, that his learned friend (Mr. Brougham) was so far mistaken as to attribute to the Protestant Dissenters (in consequence of some petitions having been presented from Dissenters) a strong feeling against the bill for the relief of the Roman Catholics. Now, he believed, that up to yesterday not more than nine or ten petitions from Protestant Dissenters had been presented. He had this morning looked over an alphabetical list of 2,000 congregations in England; and he declared, that amongst those he could find but five or six congregations that had appeared before the House. Gentlemen might easily calculate how small a proportion this number bore to the general mass of Protestant Dissenters. He held in his hand a list (compris ing the whole period from the year 1732 down to the present time) of [London] Protestant Dissenters properly so called. These were divided into three classesPresbyterians, Independents and Baptists. When they agreed on any public act, that act was performed by a number deputed from the general body. In that list he found ninety-seven congregations. He had dissected the list of petitions as well

were

as the time would allow him, and he could discover no more than five which came from persons who could by any possibility be said to belong to the sects he had mentioned. There were a great number of persons (he doubted not, very worthy and respectable persons) who belonged to the class of Methodists, (which was chiefly divided into the Whitfieldite and Wesleian connexion,) who sometimes confounded with the Protestant Dissenters, but did not in reality belong to them. He meant to cast no reflection on those parties. He merely wished to put every gentleman who heard him on his guard, lest he should be led to suppose that, because twenty petitions, emanating from this heterogeneous mixture, had been presented against the Catholic Claims, that, therefore, the great body of Protestant Dissenters were op posed to them. They had, in fact, expressed no opinion about it. He would maintain, that not one in one hundred of the Protestant Dissenting congrega. tions in England had given any opinion at all on this question. He believed the feeling of the Protestant Dissenters throughout the country, was, to leave the subject to be dealt with as Pariiament in its wisdom should think fit. Speaking of them as a body, he believed they were perfectly desirous that justice should be done to the Roman Catholics; but they left it to the wisdom of the Legislature to act as to them might appear most safe and prudent. He should be sorry if the suspicion which appeared to have entered the minds of some gentlemen near him, as to the feelings of the Protestant Dissenters, was in any degree well-founded. It would give him much pain, if the body of which he was speaking stood forward as the foes of-he would not say religious toleration, but religious liberty in its widest, extent. (Hear.) He begged to repeat his words deliberately. He should regret very much if the Protestant Dissenters opposed religious liberty in its widest extent. If they came forward and called on the Legislature to put its seal on this question-if they demanded that the claims of the Roman Catholics should be refused, he should be both surprised and grieved. He would repeat what he had before stated, that the Protestant Dissenters were not so bound together as to have amongst them but one opinion. They, of course, had their own opinions on political matters. They were tied up to no one common opinion, except that which was connected with the religion they professed. They maintained most liberal opinions in politics; and he knew po shorter or better mode of expressing their feelings than by quoting the rule of their

conduct-a rule which ought to be adopt. ed by all religious societies-namely, that of doing uuto others as they wished others to do unto them. This, the best of all possible maxims, was their motto, and he believed they were most anxious to act up to it. As a body, he deemed it right to say thus much in their behalf, lest a false opinion might be entertained of the conduct of the Protestant Dissenters. (Hear)

An Honourable Member, under the gallery, bore testimony to the correctness of the statement made by the preceding speaker.

Mr. S. RICE said he held in his hand a declaration in favour of the Catholic Claims, which had emanated from a most respectable body of the Protestant Dissenters in Ireland. The Presbyterians of the North of Ireland were as ready as any set of men to admit the claims which the Roman Catholics had on the justice of that House. This ought to be stated, to prevent them from being removed from their proper level, since they were as liberal a body of men as any in the empire. He said this, because an idea had gone forth, and was, indeed, embodied in the evidence given relative to the state of Ireland, that the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland had become more than ever adverse to the claims of the Roman Catholics. He had this day, in contradiction to that assertion, to lay before the House a statement (for the parties had not time to put it in the shape of a petition) from the Ministers and Elders of the Presbyterian profession in the county of Down und Belfast, to which they requested him to call the attention of Parliament. Those individuals said, that so far from becoming adverse to the Catholic Claims, if the Presbyterians declared themselves hostile to civil and religions liberty, they would belie the principles of the Church to which they belonged. On al occasions they had declared their opinious in favour of that liberality which became them as followers of the Christian faith. In 1812, no less than 139 members of the Synod of Ulster had called on the House to do away with all civil disabilities on account of religious opinions. The individuals whose sentiments he was now speaking, begged of him to state, that any person acting as Moderator could express nothing more than his own opinion. If he did otherwise-if he assumed a representative capacity-he passed the line and boundary of his office, since he had a right only to act in his individual capacity. The parties stated that, as the cause of Catholic Emancipation gained ground in the North, and must continue to do so, they wished, both in justice to the Dissenters and to

the Catholics, to record these their opinions. (Hear.) If a general declaration on the subject had been necessary, they could have procured thousands of respectable signatures to it; and they stated that they never felt greater cha grin-and the same remark would apply to the great body of Protestant Dissenters than they did on the publication of the evidence in which the Protestant Dissenters were described as entertaining hostility against the Roman Catholics. The first name signed to this paper was that of an individual well known to several gentlemen opposite.

It was that of the High Sheriff of the county of Down. Here was a Presbyterian, not acting in the spirit of monopoly, but coming forward to state his own liberal feelings, and at the same time to bear his testimony to the growing principles of liberality amongst his fellow-countrymen. This was worthy of a Presbyterian of the north; and he certainly would think very ill of any of that class who, having a monopoly of toleration, endeavoured to prevent others from enjoying those benefits which they themselves pos. sessed.-Laid on the Table.

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